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xanderf

The "Biggs nerf" for all named pilots - what happens?

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So Biggs can now be used only once a game.

biggs_darklighter_errata_web.png

FFG's justification for this was...

Quote

The combination of the effect being so impactful and active at all times allows lists that make full use of Biggs Darklighter to maximize survivability without major tradeoffs, even late into the game.

...

Biggs Darklighter still works fundamentally the same way—but only for one round of the game, chosen at the start of the Combat phase by the controlling player. With an activation window at the start of the Combat phase, the player flying Biggs will still almost certainly get good use out of the ability—but not for the full duration of a game. That player must choose the vital moment correctly. Meanwhile, the player flying against Biggs can bluff or attempt to set up hard choices for their opponent in an effort to draw out Biggs’ ability early, letting them deliver a decisive blow on a later turn.

(emphasis mine)

What if we take that to its logical extreme?

I mean, all of us (most, anyway) have clamored loudly, and for a long time, that the game should be about out-maneuvering your opponent.  Anticipating their actions and countering them, or out-flying them.  Generally the game works best when it does that, which is why things like 'fat turrets', or PS9 go-ahead-and-move-anywhere-on-the-board (Whisper), had been looked down on so much.

This justification provided for the Biggs nerf opens up another possibility to emphasize that...

...what if the nerf wasn't just to Biggs, but all named pilots?  IE., every pilot ability can be used only once per game, and then they turn into just a regular fighter of their PS - a big part of flying that ship, then, being to (as FFG suggests for Biggs) 'choosing the vital moment correctly' to use their named ability.

Thoughts?

Edited by xanderf

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depends on the ability and how busted it is

stuff like Major Vynder or Rhymer is just way too situational to give a **** about as is, so there is no reason to slap them with a "once per game" restriction. Other stuff, like Kylo Ren or Rex or Xizor, have enough conditions/costs associated with their abilities' use that assigning a "once per game" restriction just makes them more complicated than necessary

Stuff like Dash Rendar and Dengar, though? Yeah, once per game sounds fine

Edited by ficklegreendice

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7 minutes ago, Goseki1 said:

It's not once per turn,  it's once per GAME! Like once per match. Its a harsh Nerf but it means they can actually buff the T65 soon... 

Right, yeah, got it correct in the rest of the post but missed the first line.  Fixed.

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

depends on the ability and how busted it is

stuff like Major Vynder or Rhymer is just way too situational to give a **** about as is, so there is no reason to slap them with a "once per game" restriction. Other stuff, like Kylo Ren or Rex or Xizor, have enough conditions/costs associated with their abilities' use that assigning a "once per game" restriction just makes them more complicated than necessary

Stuff like Dash Rendar and Dengar, though? Yeah, once per game sounds fine

Well that's sort of the question - if it did apply to everyone...would it really hurt?

I mean, some pilots seem like they are priced more for their ability than anything else - Vader and Soontir Fel, for instance.  Either of them limited to 'once per game' - especially decided at the beginning of combat - would be kinda useless, I suppose.  Especially Soontir - realistically, his ability isn't actually that great, it's just that he normally gets sooooo many uses out of it (basically every turn of every game) that it has to be priced as a useful ability.  If limited to once-per-game...  I mean, at the very least, you'll see him running something other than PtL on occasion!

Of course, then, if every other pilot is ALSO limited to once-per-game...maybe not so bad?

(One clear result from this - generic swarms would come back in a big way!  And suddenly the mid-PS-pilots-with-no-ability that currently seem so ridiculously overpriced would become a lot more reasonable buys)

Edited by xanderf

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No other pilots warp the entire game (and one factions design) as much and for as long as Biggs has. This level of change for him has been overdue for nigh on five years - I'm perfectly happy for him to be the only one that gets a 'once per game' clause.

Edited by MalusCalibur

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As an Imperial player I can honestly say that all of these nerfs are positive for the game. They take away greasy loop-holes that are ruining the game.

However, I can honestly say there is no point doing anything to the T-65. I tried using Wedge at an OT tournament recently as he was absolute junk. I would have done better with a suped up A-wing! 

They overhauled the T-65 nicely. They gave it boost, a talon roll, and an extra shield. They also re-named it the T-70. 

Edited by NeverBetTheFett

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I don't like what it might do to the feel of the game if applied to every pilot.  Everyone is essentially a vastly overpriced generic, then, with only PS to distinguish.  I don't want a game where everyone is generic, at least not as a constancy.

//

Meanwhile, many over-strong pilots could also be limited in more creative ways.  For example, if Dengar only works if he loses shields.  Or maybe only if he doesn't have shields.  "Once per game" is a pretty strong hit, and very "one size fits all" in a way I don't prefer.

Edited by theBitterFig

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55 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I don't like what it might do to the feel of the game if applied to every pilot.  Everyone is essentially a vastly overpriced generic, then, with only PS to distinguish.  I don't want a game where everyone is generic, at least not as a constancy.

 

Well, as FFG notes in their justification for Biggs - it's not that the ability goes away, it's just that you now get another whole metagame regarding when to use that ability.  Bluffing on when to use or not, holding in reserve for late game vs trying for a stronger alpha turn, etc.

And, sure, once everyone has spent their ability, they become just generics-of-varying-PS.

But is that so awful?  I mean, that becomes a game, then, of maneuver more than anything.  Which is what we want, right?

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1 hour ago, xanderf said:

Well, as FFG notes in their justification for Biggs - it's not that the ability goes away, it's just that you now get another whole metagame regarding when to use that ability.  Bluffing on when to use or not, holding in reserve for late game vs trying for a stronger alpha turn, etc.

And, sure, once everyone has spent their ability, they become just generics-of-varying-PS.

But is that so awful?  I mean, that becomes a game, then, of maneuver more than anything.  Which is what we want, right?

I don't think it's awful, but it's just not really what I want out of the game.  I like that Luke dodges a little bit better every turn.  That Wedge hits a little harder every turn.

I mean, you asked, and that's just like, my opinion, man.

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3 hours ago, xanderf said:

So Biggs can now be used only once a game.

biggs_darklighter_errata_web.png

FFG's justification for this was...

(emphasis mine)

What if we take that to its logical extreme?

I mean, all of us (most, anyway) have clamored loudly, and for a long time, that the game should be about out-maneuvering your opponent.  Anticipating their actions and countering them, or out-flying them.  Generally the game works best when it does that, which is why things like 'fat turrets', or PS9 go-ahead-and-move-anywhere-on-the-board (Whisper), had been looked down on so much.

This justification provided for the Biggs nerf opens up another possibility to emphasize that...

...what if the nerf wasn't just to Biggs, but all named pilots?  IE., every pilot ability can be used only once per game, and then they turn into just a regular fighter of their PS - a big part of flying that ship, then, being to (as FFG suggests for Biggs) 'choosing the vital moment correctly' to use their named ability.

Thoughts?

You'd have to drastically recost basically every named pilot in the game as they're all paying some number of points for those abilities, and come up with new abilities for every pilot whose ability is already limited use. That and a huge swath of pilot's abilities just aren't high impact enough for them being once per game to even be relevant. That's a biiiiig list. Biggs got hit with this because his ability was so warping on gameplay and design space, and its way past due. Doing this thing in a blanket way is gross overkill, if a pilot's ability proves too good it should be addressed individually, like Biggs and Manaroo.

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20 hours ago, Otacon said:

You'd have to drastically recost basically every named pilot in the game as they're all paying some number of points for those abilities, and come up with new abilities for every pilot whose ability is already limited use. That and a huge swath of pilot's abilities just aren't high impact enough for them being once per game to even be relevant. That's a biiiiig list. Biggs got hit with this because his ability was so warping on gameplay and design space, and its way past due. Doing this thing in a blanket way is gross overkill, if a pilot's ability proves too good it should be addressed individually, like Biggs and Manaroo.

Well, the question is whether the named pilots currently are priced fairly compared to their 'generic' cousins.

How many would you say are?  While, theoretically, it's true that the named pilots are 'paying for their ability' - in practice, it doesn't feel like they are paying enough, given how poorly the generic pilots do in comparison.  ESPECIALLY the mid-tier generics.  I mean - have you ever seen someone take a Red Squadron X-Wing, Gray Squadron Y-Wing, Storm Squadron pilot (I bet you even have to look that one up to see what ship it is for!) or Obsidian-squadron pilot (etc)?

If the named-uniques are already underpaying for their abilities compared to the mid-tier generics...maybe a nerf like this would bring those mid-tier pilots into play.

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On 10/25/2017 at 2:05 PM, xanderf said:

So Biggs can now be used only once a game.

biggs_darklighter_errata_web.png

 

Biggs ability is now very thematic, and fits nicely within game-play. The poor guy can now play the man, be the hero he was; as long as the gaming pilot has the kahunas to put him between the enemy and the ship he's protecting, though not very likely, haha. Regardless, he was the legend that took the hit so the hero could push on to complete the mission.

However, this "once per game" doesn't dovetail with other pilots thematically. Most every other pilot doesn't have that issue, it's simply an ability and therefore it should proc many times.

As it has sank into my limited brain matter over the past day, I have come to realize, it's quite a beautiful errata actually.

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Once per game stuff is best done with upgrade cards that get flipped. If an ability is so good it can only be used once per game, maybe it shouldn't be an ability. Yes there are a few exceptions that make sense, like at start of game abilities, otherwise, pilot abilities isn't where you want to put the once per game stuff.

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14 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Biggs ability is now very thematic, and fits nicely within game-play. The poor guy can now play the man, be the hero he was; as long as the gaming pilot has the kahunas to put him between the enemy and the ship he's protecting,

0mw1I8e.gif

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