We're all fine here, how are you?

[Lord Tareq 704]

I'd actually love to see a new rule which says you can only use 1 named squadron for every 2 normal squadrons that you field. I'm a bit tired of seeing aceballs with 7 or 8 aces, each one having defense tokens, special rules, different stats..etc.. really slows the squadron game down compared to say 6 x-wing and 3 y-wing squadrons.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Lord Tareq

[geek19 6,557]

2 minutes ago, Lord Tareq said:

I'd actually love to see a new rule which says you can only use 1 named squadron for every 2 normal squadrons that you field. I'm a bit tired of seeing aceballs with 7 or 8 aces, each one having defense tokens, special rules, different stats..etc.. really slows the squadron game down compared to say 6 x-wing and 3 y-wing squadrons.

Isn't that just another F You to Rieekan though? With practice, squadron play isn't any faster or slower with aces and keywords when you know your list.

[durandal343 418]

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Isn't that just another F You to Rieekan though? With practice, squadron play isn't any faster or slower with aces and keywords when you know your list.

That's right, it's never faster.. just slow or slower.  But that's entirely my fault for vacillating on every decision.  The problem I run into is trying to figure out what the enemy squads that I'm not familiar with do and what the other guy is trying to do with them and then what I need to do to stop it.  But that's just me and needing more time to play and get better.

[geek19 6,557]

1 minute ago, durandal343 said:

That's right, it's never faster.. just slow or slower.  But that's entirely my fault for vacillating on every decision.  The problem I run into is trying to figure out what the enemy squads that I'm not familiar with do and what the other guy is trying to do with them and then what I need to do to stop it.  But that's just me and needing more time to play and get better.

Keep practicing, it gets easier and faster the more you play and play against them all.

[GalacticFist 202]

2 hours ago, svelok said:

The top tables lately seem to consist (based on that Tokra thread) of a disproportionate amount of Ackbar MC80s, and Sloane lists, and a varied sprinkling of Yavaris. Collectively those accounted for about two-thirds of top 2s.

If there's something in need of balancing - which I'm not endorsing here - it'd probably be some aspect of those.

There's probably always room for improvements but I'm pretty happy with the game state right now. Starting to get a little weary of Sloane alpha strikes, maybe.

That's more game design complaints than game balance, no? Edit: although I guess so is my Sloane thing.

Agree with this but would like to note the common denominators between those 3 lists (and really the common denominators between all the lists people are complaining about in this thread) are Relay, Strategic, and 3+ flotillas. 

[Undeadguy 5,749]

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

With regards to activation advantage and the strength of them, I wonder how many "flotilla complaints" could be resolved with stronger other activations. For example, you can build the Cymoon to one shot 2 flotillas a turn. That's a very strong activation that counters a lot of things. And a VSD with DCaps can hurt them similarly.

I get what you're saying that it's "boring" but I think FFG sees that as well. The BCC nerf was the start of it, but I'd bet they aren't done improving other ships to get better attacks and make them worth taking. Cymoon is DCaps for ISDs, if you will. More of a reason to take them. FFG recognizes that ISDs are "iconic" and "star wars" so there's more of a reason to see them, as you have more varied options for running them under different commanders. When there's more "good options" (again, DCap VSD is my easy example) there's less reasons to spam flotillas.

I haven't seen an Ackbar 80/flots or ISD/flots list though. That would be garbage to face I bet.

This is why I run a Vic with GT+DC+LS. So I can pop flotillas at long range. I have XI7 for the off chance I can attack something other than a flotilla, but 2 Glads are much better at ship to ship than a Vic ever will. 

I see merit to both arguments. If you allow 2nd player Strategic Ackbar Defiance have last activation every round, it's really no better than letting Demo have first activation every round. Something is going to a ton of damage. 

[DrakonLord 752]

Flotilla problem? Intel officer

"You want to scatter?Ok, but you scatter you must discard it"

[thecactusman17 3,192]

2 hours ago, geek19 said:

I'd be ok with that ET nerf. I can't answer your Relay hatred issue as we're just starting to get squadron players up here in Chicago. Insert horrid joke about flyover country being true because that's where the squads must have been.

Same with the 80/ISD and flots. I think on average we're down to 1.5 flots a side here for most lists. Much VSDs though.

As for swarms, I don't disagree with you, but how much is your player skill? If you're beating people with the list, is it because of the activation advantage, your abilities, or what you're flying against (as in, have you tested your no squads vs a squadron heavy fleet?) Not trying to accuse or belittle your complaint so much as understand it somewhat better.

 

Wait, there's a VSD meta in Chicago?

*cross references Regionals dates and airline ticket prices*

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

44 minutes ago, GalacticFister said:

Agree with this but would like to note the common denominators between those 3 lists (and really the common denominators between all the lists people are complaining about in this thread) are Relay, Strategic, and 3+ flotillas. 

Just to be clear up front, I'm not objecting to your point, just thinking out loud a little about it...

Super Pickle:  Correct on both counts.  Definitely uses flotilla padding.  Relay is there, though usually largely because it's attached to Strategic, which of course enables this kind of list.

Sloane:  There are very different ways to build for Sloane, so it's pretty hard to make an empirical assessment here.  But based on Tokra's data (which, I don't have the lists, and can't speak to how he made his categorizations), it looks like 2/5 top Sloane lists had flotilla padding (so @Tokra-style builds rather than QF-centric ones).  He doesn't report anything about Relay/Strategic, but anecdotally I've only seen it be worth including in a QF-less Sloane build, for a number of reasons I won't get into here, so it's reasonable to speculate that Lambdas were only present in 2/5.

Yavaris:  No idea, not enough data here.  The mere inclusion of Yavaris does not characterize any particular archetype right now, partly because it's so flexible and partly because it's main archetype (Rieekan Ace Holes) is still in flux after The Nerfening.  Four of these 22 lists are reported to have Yavaris, and none says anything about Relay/Strategic or flotillas.  Probably, they all include at least one BCC platform.  I've also seen Jamming Fields making a resurgence, so maybe that's in some too.  Beyond that, there's really no basis in this data to conclude that all four include 3+ flotillas.

--------------------

On the other side, flotilla activations are definitely enabling large ships to make the table.  Of the 6 ISD fleets, 4 have flotilla activation pads--the other 2 are dual-ISD.  Of the 5 MC80 fleets, at least 3 have flotilla pads, with a fourth (Yavaris/MC80/aces) that probably has two, and one is dual MC80. 

Conversely, I don't see a lot of heavy flotilla usage reported apart from the large ships.  Which is not to say it's not there:  while I don't see direct indication of significant flotilla padding outside these 7-8 lists, @Tokra definitely took a bunch of flotillas because that's what he does, and there's not really any data indicating or contradicting their prevalence elsewhere.  Safe to speculate that at least half or so of the lists brought 2-3 flotillas. 

Mothma probably had 1, maybe 2; Cracken probably didn't bring many; the other three Sloanes probably brought 1 each; the GSD lists might've had 1 or 2; Ozzel probably didn't bring many.  The 2 dual-ISDs could have had anywhere from 0-2--I've seen dual ISD be successful with 0, 1, or 2 Gozantis.

 

So, certainly those three elements you pointed out are showing up, but it doesn't seem to me like they're completely dominating top tables or anything.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[DrakonLord 752]

I dont have an issue with relay, as it tends to be the first squadron i alpha stike with Ewings in a game. Snipe 2 speed 4 activated by a command means they can be out of engagement range and still shoot the bugger. (I tend to bring 3 E wings with a average damage of 1 each, sometimes i get lucky and kill the relax first round, other times it survives for a bit longer)

6 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Wait, there's a VSD meta in Chicago?

*cross references Regionals dates and airline ticket prices*

Hahahaha

Edited October 25, 2017 by DrakonLord
Me no math well apparently

[Green Knight 9,731]

I hardly ever see a list with less than two flotillas.

Often three.

Lately four appears common.

(I used 4 in my Nationals list)

[DrakonLord 752]

Just now, Green Knight said:

I hardly ever see a list with less than two flotillas.

Often three.

Lately four appears common.

(I used 4 in my Nationals list)

Conversely i am the only one who uses a flotilla regularly where i am and i only own 1.

[Green Knight 9,731]

Just now, DrakonLord said:

Conversely i am the only one who uses a flotilla regularly where i am and i only own 1.

They are prevalent in all list types, from heavy squad to all ship, rebel and imperial. From the local scene too nationals. On the table and vassal.

Flotillas everywhere.

[Darth Sanguis 6,324]

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

And now people will come and refute my OPINION on how the game is perfect. 

That's me  Though I'm not refuting so much as questioning lol

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I think Relay, ramming (forgot to add that) and activations should be nerfed in some manner because you can abuse/exploit them outside of their original design.

Specifically relay in this quote.... how is relay being abused outside it's original design?

to quote FFG,

"What will you do with your Wave V squadrons? Will you use their new abilities to run bomber wings with ships that need to hold back at distance?"

Relay was designed to activate squads where ships wouldn't be safe to do so.  Is there a way to abuse this?

[DrakonLord 752]

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

They are prevalent in all list types, from heavy squad to all ship, rebel and imperial. From the local scene too nationals. On the table and vassal.

Flotillas everywhere.

Hahaha traumatised.

Not trying to promote one side of the argument or another, but i am serious in our local meta flotillas simply are nearly non existent 

[Green Knight 9,731]

1 minute ago, DrakonLord said:

Hahaha traumatised.

Not trying to promote one side of the argument or another, but i am serious in our local meta flotillas simply are nearly non existent 

I'm happy for you.

Be content in your little bubble :-)

Nationals final was only 6 gorillas in all, but I had a sc top table where we had 8.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

Just now, Green Knight said:

I'm happy for you.

Be content in your little bubble :-)

Nationals final was only 6 gorillas in all, but I had a sc top table where we had 8.

How the **** did you fit 8 Gorillas on a Table?

[thecactusman17 3,192]

4 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Conversely i am the only one who uses a flotilla regularly where i am and i only own 1.

I wish I played in your area.  I have used up to 4 flotillas, but only one game where I fealt I was really flying a cinematic Star Wars list (the recent bounty vs GK).  The bare bones cost efficiency of the flotilla, especially as a micro carrier, is too significant to ignore. 

[thecactusman17 3,192]

Just now, Drasnighta said:

How the **** did you fit 8 Gorillas on a Table?

 Question:   Where does an 800 pound gorilla sit? 

 

Answer:  Wherever he wants to.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

Just now, thecactusman17 said:

 Question:   Where does an 800 pound gorilla sit? 

 

Answer:  Wherever he wants to.

Yeah, but 8 of them are going to have disagreements 

[geek19 6,557]

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Yeah, but 8 of them are going to have disagreements 

Is the alt art gorilla card feature Magilla, King Kong, or one of the rap group members?

[Snipafist 7,536]

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Wait, there's a VSD meta in Chicago?

*cross references Regionals dates and airline ticket prices*

The VSD-II with Disposable Capacitors and Gunnery Team and whatnot is a not-uncommon sight, but I would not say we have a "VSD meta." They're largely something of a response by the players who want a heavier longer-ranged fleet using Motti or Jerry against the players using MSU-style swarm fleets. The super-VSD can put some reliable damage into smaller ships from downtown which enables them to usually start taking out the hobbled small ship(s) a turn or so earlier than usual, which can have cascading benefits due to the decreased activations gap. That's it, really. They're more of a meta response than the dominant archetype.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

Just now, geek19 said:

Is the alt art gorilla card feature Magilla, King Kong, or one of the rap group members?

Let me win a Continental Championship, and then I'll get back to you...

[DrakonLord 752]

I must admit though we are a largely casual gaming group, we just want to have fun and relax on gaming nights hahaha so we experiment with a lot of list builds.

When flotillas first came out we used them a lot, but then we started deploying flotilla hunters that would ignore the hard if not impossible  to kill ISD or MC8 and just go after the flotillas, objectives and squadrons and win the game that way. We soon after started using less flotillas, now im the only one who actually uses them regularly.

Flotilla hunter (68/400)
========================
CR90 Corvette A (44 + 24)
    + Intel Officer (7)
    + Engine Techs (8)
    + Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
    + Jaina's Light (2)

[Drasnighta 26,831]

You see, I've looked at that sort of thing...  But in the end, I find it can't reliably kill 3 enemy flotillas to make it "worth its points".

Mostly because detaching it for flotilla hunting duty means I'm thusly lacking that firepower in the main battle, and it tends to mess up my activation order for that main battle, too...

 

My greatest success with Flotilla Hunting was a General Organa fuelled Flotilla itself...  Since it could use a single Engineering command to strip its Damage cards from Face-ramming enemy Flotillas...