should be an LCG!!

[Buhallin 4,563]

1 hour ago, Destraa said:

Nines only had a small number of power pairings, it was the continually upgrades weapons suite that made him as obnoxiously powerful as he was.

Sorry if the sarcasm above was a bit subtle.  That was basically my point - FN was inherently broken, all the typical excuses of "They can't possibly see all the combos!" are obvious tripe.

Same goes for most of what got the nerf bat in this set.  Poe, Rey, Nines, Vibroknife...  none of them are fringe Spanish Inquisition combos.  They're very obvious and fundamental elements of the abilities.

[Destraa 222]

10 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Sorry if the sarcasm above was a bit subtle.  That was basically my point - FN was inherently broken, all the typical excuses of "They can't possibly see all the combos!" are obvious tripe.

Same goes for most of what got the nerf bat in this set.  Poe, Rey, Nines, Vibroknife...  none of them are fringe Spanish Inquisition combos.  They're very obvious and fundamental elements of the abilities.

Nines, again, wasn’t overwhelmingly dominant until recently, mainly due to the recent power combo and influx of quality weaponry. He was rather manageable during the SoR meta and we saw that by how diverse the meta was (Emo Twins, Tatooine Tag Team, Vader/Guard, etc.) aside from the Poe/Maz exception that dominated to Hero side up until most recently with EaW. Rey was never truly an issue because her dice were mediocre at best, and even with ambush stacking, only raised her to moderately capable. She was never a meta force for that reason. The new Rey/eMaz/eEzra deck did see her finally showing some potential, and still does. But maybe not enough still to push her to competitive status. Poe/Maz had to get Neagan’d eventually, especially with the new fodder in existence (L1RK or Ghost anyone?), just rather surprised it took this long to finally happen. And Vibroknife began to fall out of favor due to the new high aggro meta that was forming, where shields didn’t usually have a chance to pool in any quantity that mattered. The change merely brought it in line with Vibroaxe and Electrostaff.

[Amanal 2,557]

40 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

They're very obvious and fundamental elements of the abilities.

As someone that has done play testing, saying that the text was so obvious it shouldn't have been missed overlooks one key element in the process: Even a majority opinion held by the play testers can be ignored by the game designer.

I think, based on my impressions of Jeremy being interviewed, what I have read and what he has done so far, that he is going to be far more cautious and considered of the play testers opinions.

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

5 hours ago, Bradders77 said:

Lol rant over and calmed down ? Yeah, where do you start though lol it's been running a while now. Was thinking about L5r but the games quite long for a card game 90 mins? I am new to card games.  I like the look of net runner but wouldn't know where to start with that either.

Yeah, I agree, trying to catch up with an existing LCG is a pain in the neck! That's why I like Destiny as it is - if you're just playing casual with a friend or two, it's way cheaper to get good decks through packs and trading. And the 15-30 minute game time makes it really fun and relaxing. Being a completionist is tough though - that's what got me! I have way too many of these little plastic dice now...

[Mep 2,291]

I prefer LCGs and would like to have seen this be one, but that boat has sailed.

[Stone37 3,353]

This very much could have been done affordably as a LCG and I think I'm going to start playing that game instead....

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/208316

 

[blackholexan 115]

2 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

This very much could have been done affordably as a LCG and I think I'm going to start playing that game instead....

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/208316

 

You need dice from one core box and that's it. Every set in Destiny as LCG would cost WAY more. They are two completely different games (even if some ideas may come from that)

[Buhallin 4,563]

3 hours ago, Stone37 said:

This very much could have been done affordably as a LCG and I think I'm going to start playing that game instead....

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/208316

 

That looks to have 4 distinct die types, while Awakenings had 67.  That might increase the cost to produce just a bit, maybe?

They also look to be standard custom plastic dice.  I've seen that style with games like Dice Masters and Quarriors, and it's ugly and hard to distinguish what die is what.

[Amanal 2,557]

 

5 hours ago, Stone37 said:

This very much could have been done affordably as a LCG and I think I'm going to start playing that game instead....

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/208316

Ashes is a fine game, I was playing it until Destiny came out and enjoyed it.

[Mep 2,291]

Haven't played Ashes but it is clearly is a value game. One thing, it is cheaper to produce than Destiny and doesn't have to pay the mouse. The CCG model itself is expensive for the customer but I really don't see FFG making big margins on this game unlike magic that sells a 15 cent pack of cards for $4.

[Amanal 2,557]

The horse has bolted on the LCG and as much as you may want it to change it won't.

In general the high end of the CCG is higher than a LCG, but the low end of the CCG is also lower than the LCG model. Would there be people out there playing a starter and a few boosters against their friends that also have a starter and a few boosters? Would they be playing a core set box? Consider that one of every card and dice comes in at about 180 cards and 36 dice, which would be the cost of a box. That seems quite a significant buy in to "test the waters".

Most games only have a value to you if you can actually play them, without an opponent you have wasted your money. I think we wouldn't have as many opponents if this game was an LCG as we do.

[Mep 2,291]

I don't see how this being a CCG over an LCG would have more or less people playing it. I think the game itself determines interest. Destiny isn't too far off from an LCG with it's starter sets, two player set and now draft set. That is basically what a LCG would look like. The CCG aspect does all people to collect the cards, which is something I suppose, but doesn't necessarily translate to people playing it.

BTW, nothing wrong with letting FFG know people prefer LCGs, just that this game never will be one.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Mep

[Ajones47 170]

45 minutes ago, Mep said:

BTW, nothing wrong with letting FFG know people prefer LCGs, just that this game never will be one.

I actually don’t prefer the LCG format, if we’re all having our say. I probably wouldn’t have gotten into this if it was an LCG.

[Amanal 2,557]

1 hour ago, Mep said:

The CCG aspect does all people to collect the cards, which is something I suppose, but doesn't necessarily translate to people playing it.

For most people if you were to put the core pack of L5R next to a 2-player starter or even an old Destiny starter pack, which is cheaper than the L5R core what are they going to pick?

I most certainly didn't buy much more than 2 of each starter and played a few games before I went crazy. Sure, once I went crazy..... But the thing is I knew I was happy and having fun, so crazy was OK.

[TylerTT 1,295]

It is an LCG! Just ignore the boosters and play with 2x of the fixed product.

[Destraa 222]

LCGs are nice because it’s an informed buy, yes, but have slews of their own problems. If you honestly want Destiny LCG, FFG already has one, ironically called Star Wars Living Card Game.

[Mep 2,291]

2 hours ago, Amanal said:

For most people if you were to put the core pack of L5R next to a 2-player starter or even an old Destiny starter pack, which is cheaper than the L5R core what are they going to pick?

I most certainly didn't buy much more than 2 of each starter and played a few games before I went crazy. Sure, once I went crazy..... But the thing is I knew I was happy and having fun, so crazy was OK.

Yes, but if Destiny had its own IP and not star wars, would people still buy it over say L5R or Ashes? The IP flat out sells just about anything from pez to toilet seats.

[Ajones47 170]

2 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yes, but if Destiny had its own IP and not star wars, would people still buy it over say L5R or Ashes? The IP flat out sells just about anything from pez to toilet seats.

I’m not sure if that’s a fair argument. Can the flash ever really be separated from the substance? I mean, would people buy three copies of a 90 minute card game if it weren’t branded with the L5R IP? We can’t say for sure, because the system is indivisibly linked with the IP. I can say, though, that most of the players at my local got into it to relive the heyday of the old CCG. Had it been the same system, but Runewars rather than L5R, perhaps it would not have sold as well.

That being said, having experienced the system through Destiny, I’d totally buy a duel-dice system game in the Runewars IP.

[Mep 2,291]

@Ajones47 Destiny wasn't designed by FFG, they bought it. Can you name the game it actually came from? Neither can anyone else. Without the IP it is just another game like Ashes or L5R. To be honest, with the SW IP I am shocked it isn't bigger than it is. When the X-wing changes came today the thread about it was over a 12 pages in just a few hours. The thread about the Destiny changes will probably never it a dozen pages.

[CushionRide 28]

my problem with faq's changing the face of what the cards say is that not everyone reads the faq's,  or goes to major tournaments.  and when they decide to go to one and find out bam,  the hammer is dropped and they get pissed.  these kind of changes have made people quit games.  and FFG not only decided to do this to destiny but xwing as well. if not worse there.  there is gonna be a lot of backlash in the next couple of months. and I think ffg's pocket book will reflect that

 

[Buhallin 4,563]

1 hour ago, CushionRide said:

my problem with faq's changing the face of what the cards say is that not everyone reads the faq's,  or goes to major tournaments.  and when they decide to go to one and find out bam,  the hammer is dropped and they get pissed.  these kind of changes have made people quit games.  and FFG not only decided to do this to destiny but xwing as well. if not worse there.  there is gonna be a lot of backlash in the next couple of months. and I think ffg's pocket book will reflect that

 

How is this any different than a card being banned?  Someone who isn't keeping up with errata won't be keeping up with a ban list either.  Honestly, this will be a problem with ANY changes made to the game.  I don't think saying that no card can ever change after being printed is healthy for the game.

[Amanal 2,557]

4 hours ago, CushionRide said:

... These kind of changes have made people quit games...

And that's fine, they leave. I am not too sure how anyone would attend a tournament without checking the FAQ, Errata and Rules, when the rulebook is a living rulebook and subject to change.  

I would rather have errata and a good, fun, balanced game and have them leave. I don't think this is being selfish, I think a good majority of the players in this game would feel this way.

I just got back from an 8 player store evening and everyone was happy for the changes and having a blast. I lost one game with a shield deck and largely because I miss played and chose to kill the characters opposite me in the wrong order. For the first time in months we weren't rushing to run out of cards and claim, everything seemed to matter and it was a great evening.

[Amanal 2,557]

6 hours ago, Mep said:

Yes, but if Destiny had its own IP and not star wars, would people still buy it over say L5R or Ashes?

I don't know. I certainly have a bias towards Star Wars.

However, in terms of costs Ashes at the time I bought in was $80au, L5R $70au and Destiny $25au. Would I have spent $25 to find out? Best honest answer is maybe....

[Destraa 222]

7 hours ago, Mep said:

@Ajones47 Destiny wasn't designed by FFG, they bought it. Can you name the game it actually came from? Neither can anyone else. Without the IP it is just another game like Ashes or L5R. To be honest, with the SW IP I am shocked it isn't bigger than it is. When the X-wing changes came today the thread about it was over a 12 pages in just a few hours. The thread about the Destiny changes will probably never it a dozen pages.

X-Wing players are also some of FFG’s saltiest. 

[CushionRide 28]

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

And that's fine, they leave. I am not too sure how anyone would attend a tournament without checking the FAQ, Errata and Rules, when the rulebook is a living rulebook and subject to change.  

I would rather have errata and a good, fun, balanced game and have them leave. I don't think this is being selfish, I think a good majority of the players in this game would feel this way.

I just got back from an 8 player store evening and everyone was happy for the changes and having a blast. I lost one game with a shield deck and largely because I miss played and chose to kill the characters opposite me in the wrong order. For the first time in months we weren't rushing to run out of cards and claim, everything seemed to matter and it was a great evening.

ill be honest the changes recently made in destiny are not that bad.  there was a little distress at my store, cause some newer players just finished making their decks and bam!  cant do that no more.  but its not a change that completely changes things.  now in Xwing miniatures..... that's a whole new ball of wax.  they have completely redone cards   their jumpmaster has been wholesale stripped of all mods It could have had in the past.  DONE..  it would not surprise me if the xwing community shifts again and gets smaller,  at my local area xwing used to be a big game,  every sunday at one store we would have 3-4 players a week, at the other on Saturday about the same,  now none.  no one has been playing except an occasional store champ.  then we might get 6 people.  you can have that ..... let them leave attitude maybe where you are, but where im at, if they leave then the store doesn't sell product then guess what,  our store will no longer sell that product for the few left like me who collect and play.  this same thing happened with Force of will.  our stores stopped getting product cause they lost their crowds.  this was more the stores fault than the games.  I don't want my favorite games to disappear,  I like them.  I wanna play them. ffg needs to find a rule set that works and make cards that don't break that rule set for every game, if they don't they will start having the problems that games workshop has..... making editions every 2 years. and then having to make factions books with new rule sets for them specifically.  I really don't want to do that..