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New Rules Reference Guide

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2 hours ago, LHyoda said:

Typical internet response. 

Two days ago: "FN is broken! Phasma is too good! Thrawn is a NPE!" 

Today: "OMG FFG sucks at design. New players will hate this. Why can't you just design perfectly."

Don't get me wrong, I am glad FN is getting hit hard, and Phasma was always undercosted.  I'm just not sold on the idea that increasing their costs is necessarily a more elegant solution than making slight adjustments to gametext.

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The rules specifically say modifier dice increase the value of another die.

The Electrostaff is not doing any damage. Its making the Vibroknife die do more damage, thus it would be unblockable.

Same goes if they both modify a die. Vibroknife still kicks off and makes it unblockable regardless of if another die got involved as well since it has no clause to prevent that.

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22 minutes ago, Zamrod said:

The rules say: "Some dice have one or more blue sides with a plus sign (+) before the value. Sides with a plus can only be resolved at the same time as another die that shows the same symbol without a plus. While resolving, the plus value is added to the other die to create a new value."

The section on Count Dooku explains "If a die is spent with a modified die, that is one source of damage and Count Dooku can only gain 1 shield."

The rules also say: "Damage dealt during the same action is usually dealt at different times since the dice are resolved one at a time. The only time multiple dice deal damage at the exact same time is when a die is being modified by other dice."

It also says "A player cannot split the damage from a single die (or a die that has been modified) among different characters."

The key is that the plus value is added to the other die to create a new value which deals all of its damage simultaneously, counts as one source of damage, and cannot be split. A vibroknife that is showing 1 melee with a +3 modifier does 4 damage. Its damage can't be split up and either all of it goes through shields or none of it does.

Okay I Agree with that. So nerfing vibroknife only reduced its effectiveness  by about 30%.

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16 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

Okay I Agree with that. So nerfing vibroknife only reduced its effectiveness  by about 30%.

It's a far bigger impact than that.

At a bare minimum, the die must be showing damage - that cuts it by 50%.  Yes, you can still modify the unblockable die, but any other base-side die remains blockable.  Even optimistically assuming you can get 75% of the damage via modification, that knocks it down to around 35% as effective as before.

But it's even worse than that.  Partial unblockable is nowhere NEAR as strong as fully-unblockable.  Let's say I have two shields.  If you resolve 3 damage unblockable and 2 blockable, the unblockable is meaningless.  The end result is the same - two damage absorbed by shields, 3 through.  So the only time it will actually matter is when the blockable portion of damage is less than the shields on the target.

It will still have a place for finishing off characters with low health, and is still useful.  But it is a pretty serious nerf.  Honestly, it's more of a hit than I was expecting.  I would have been happy if it still made all melee unblockable but had to be showing damage.  This is over and above that.

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2 hours ago, LHyoda said:

Typical internet response. 

Two days ago: "FN is broken! Phasma is too good! Thrawn is a NPE!" 

Today: "OMG FFG sucks at design. New players will hate this. Why can't you just design perfectly."

Lots of people were saying FFG sucks at design two days ago too.  Tight game balance has never been their strongest suit.

But still, I find it amusing how "the internet" is a single body, not made up of individuals with different viewpoints.  I mean, it couldn't possibly be that Persons A, B, and C thought FN was broken, Phasma was too good, and Thrawn is an NPE while Persons X, Y, and Z think new players will hate this.

 

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15 hours ago, Buhallin said:

The only people who think errata is a problem for new players are veteran players who've been conditioned by WotC to prefer banning cards.

This being my first card game... Swing and miss.

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1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

its like people expect gaming companies to make a perfect game the first try....

The only games that dont have text changes after release are boardgames. An expansion or sequel may change things but nothing for the initial box on its own.

This isnt a boardgame.

Let's be fair. These are some pretty big changes to be making after the game is this old. WOTC does some things wrong, but rarely are their mistakes big enough to break the game as badly as Destiny was before these changes.

In the history of magic, normally they don't have to change any cards at all and a card tends to get banned only once every 3 sets or so.

I really like Destiny, and I have faith it'll get better in the future, but right now the game is not in the best state. These changes fix the worst of the problems, but there's still quite a few overcosted characters who are pretty much useless. The speed of the game is still too fast to make at least 30% of the printed cards worth playing at all since there's no way to use them effectively before the game ends.

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21 hours ago, Stone37 said:

But let's play this out....

I'm playing eKylo/ePhasma as I just bought two 2 Player Game sets so I can get a quick jump into the game.  I've also bought a few boosters

Sorry.... you can't play that deck that is only a month and a half old.  You'll need to drop a character die.

Then, I'll play with Unkar Pluntt that I just opened in a pack.

That's cool, but his card is different now too. 

OK, I'm going to play Vibroknife!

Just remember that it works differently from what it actually says on the card.

Geez, how many changes are there? Is it still OK to play Fasthands?

Only on a yellow character. 

Wow there are a lot of changes!

Yea... you should just keep this 30 page reference guide to check every card you play to make sure it still does what is printed on the card...

If this particular scenario would happen, I would tell the guy to immediatly go buy a lottery ticket... or have some doubt that he's just trolling me. (to be fair though, errata's currently takes half a page, not 30)

Thing is, I will trade this very very very unlikely scenario to the one that I saw in a tournament that I participated in about a month ago. A new player come in, wanting to play some Destiny. Since he's new, he's playing a deck with Rey, Finn and a Rebel Trooper, very suboptimal, but he made a deck with the cards he had to be able to play some game. He then had a wonderful gaming day getting destroyed and Choked by decks like Kylo/FN, Thrawnkar and Poe/Maz without being able to play the game himself because he had time to do nothing. He said afterward that maybe this game is not for him.

So, from my point of view, I prefer that they make some errata to the game early instead of leaving some broken combo in the game that will produce NPE for new players (and old ones, I saw a couple of players leave already because they were tired to always go against Poe/Maz or FN+X).

Now, maybe it's because I've been a TO for X-Wing and Armada for 4 years now, but I have a really hard time believing that someone would go to a tournament without taking the time to at least take a look at the RRG and then getting pissed because something in it changed what he is playing. Reading the Rulebook of a game seems like the basic thing to do before attending a tournament. I mean, I never played Netrunner, but I would never just buy the Core Set, make myself a deck, go to a tournament and then get pissed because a card I have is invalid.

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As someone pointed out earlier theres BARELY any cards out of the total that have changed text (think it was less than a dozen noncharacters and the just now character changes)

This game has well over 600 cards atm, with almost 200 more coming out around january. Seriously if someone new ran into every single text change in a row they have ridiculously weird luck.

The sky isnt falling because you gotta remember a few bits of text. You still have to remember THE RULES THEMSELVES so big deal.
I havnt played a single miniature or card game that didnt have something changed from the original release, be it in the rules or in the card. And i'd rather them change the card than ban the card when it can still be obtained in a booster
Imagine this: Vibroknife didnt get errata'd but instead banned outright. You buy 3 Spirit of Rebellion packs. All 3 of the dice cards are vibroknives, congrats you just got shafted out of your money because they are 100% useless in that scenario while right now they are still potent (still a 2pt ambush card with a decent die) just not "I played this card i win now" against a shield deck.

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4 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Thing is, I will trade this very very very unlikely scenario to the one that I saw in a tournament that I participated in about a month ago. A new player come in, wanting to play some Destiny. Since he's new, he's playing a deck with Rey, Finn and a Rebel Trooper, very suboptimal, but he made a deck with the cards he had to be able to play some game. He then had a wonderful gaming day getting destroyed and Choked by decks like Kylo/FN, Thrawnkar and Poe/Maz without being able to play the game himself because he had time to do nothing. He said afterward that maybe this game is not for him.

This kind of situation is why the Destiny crowd in my area rapidly dwindled down to only the competitive players, and why new players stopped showing up after one or two "casual Destiny nights" at our LFGS or even a single tournament.

Hopefully the new changes to characters and cards help bring people back in as decks need to get changed up.

Edited by Derpzilla88

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How is this the games fault? Yeah Errata's suck but its better than a full blown BAN like magic does. I rather have the errata's then a BAN.

Any CCG is this way. If you cant invest the time or buy the cards you will never compete with players that do. Just because you buy 1 starter and 2 packs doesn't mean you now have everything to compete. Magic, Pokémon ( yeah pokemon), yugio, etc ,etc have meta decks that will crush a new player to bits. If a new player thinks that any deck can compete by playing the minimal then CCG's are not for them.

 

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The changes for now are actually small and easy to keep up with. This won't be the case in a few years time. X-Wing can't be reliably played by using the cards. You now need a "book" to play it. The whole point of the cards is to do what the card says and not need a book. That is the failing of other games and great innovation of FFG's.

So yes, if a card needs errata a month and a half out of the box, FFG done gone screwed up and needs to replace the defective product. This is the least they can do. Many people put down $60 to have eNewPhasma and now she isn't the same thing they payed for. I don't think refunds are necessary, just a card replacement.

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18 minutes ago, Mep said:

The whole point of the cards is to do what the card says and not need a book. That is the failing of other games and great innovation of FFG's.

That "great innovation of FFG's" started at least a decade before X-wing.  Warmachine was the biggest minis game to include reference cards that I know of, but there were probably others.

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30 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

That "great innovation of FFG's" started at least a decade before X-wing.  Warmachine was the biggest minis game to include reference cards that I know of, but there were probably others.

There is nothing new under the sun. It is an innovation that they stuck too and really made their own.

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On 2017-10-25 at 2:08 PM, ozmodon said:

Okay I Agree with that. So nerfing vibroknife only reduced its effectiveness  by about 30%.

Good, but i'd say more like 30,474638263283374848%, to be precise because...

On 2017-10-25 at 2:10 PM, ozmodon said:

I'm looking forward to getting in some games now. I'll have to go play after work tonight.  I'm impressed with the changes and how aggressive  it is.

I too agree! They solved several, but now all, problems!

On 2017-10-25 at 2:31 PM, Buhallin said:

It's a far bigger impact than that.

At a bare minimum, the die must be showing damage - that cuts it by 50%.  Yes, you can still modify the unblockable die, but any other base-side die remains blockable.  Even optimistically assuming you can get 75% of the damage via modification, that knocks it down to around 35% as effective as before.

But it's even worse than that.  Partial unblockable is nowhere NEAR as strong as fully-unblockable.  Let's say I have two shields.  If you resolve 3 damage unblockable and 2 blockable, the unblockable is meaningless.  The end result is the same - two damage absorbed by shields, 3 through.  So the only time it will actually matter is when the blockable portion of damage is less than the shields on the target.

It will still have a place for finishing off characters with low health, and is still useful.  But it is a pretty serious nerf.  Honestly, it's more of a hit than I was expecting.  I would have been happy if it still made all melee unblockable but had to be showing damage.  This is over and above that.

Yes and know, hard to % when you can kill a 2 health character with knife and its modified. But you are right, it is a serious nerf.

12 hours ago, Red Castle said:

If this particular scenario would happen, I would tell the guy to immediatly go buy a lottery ticket... or have some doubt that he's just trolling me. (to be fair though, errata's currently takes half a page, not 30)

Thing is, I will trade this very very very unlikely scenario to the one that I saw in a tournament that I participated in about a month ago. A new player come in, wanting to play some Destiny. Since he's new, he's playing a deck with Rey, Finn and a Rebel Trooper, very suboptimal, but he made a deck with the cards he had to be able to play some game. He then had a wonderful gaming day getting destroyed and Choked by decks like Kylo/FN, Thrawnkar and Poe/Maz without being able to play the game himself because he had time to do nothing. He said afterward that maybe this game is not for him.

So, from my point of view, I prefer that they make some errata to the game early instead of leaving some broken combo in the game that will produce NPE for new players (and old ones, I saw a couple of players leave already because they were tired to always go against Poe/Maz or FN+X).

Now, maybe it's because I've been a TO for X-Wing and Armada for 4 years now, but I have a really hard time believing that someone would go to a tournament without taking the time to at least take a look at the RRG and then getting pissed because something in it changed what he is playing. Reading the Rulebook of a game seems like the basic thing to do before attending a tournament. I mean, I never played Netrunner, but I would never just buy the Core Set, make myself a deck, go to a tournament and then get pissed because a card I have is invalid.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

We showed a new player how to play a few weeks ago, using fun deck (Lando Vs Krennick). It was fun, but then, we showed him the "true" side of the game, so he understood how to make a tournament viable deck...

-PoeMaz was rough, but he understood

-I played my rainbow 9, wich i considered then STUPID, and it was indeed stupid. Basically game was finished on turn 1. Turn 2 was just used to confirm victory, but he could have conceded right at the beginning.

I am very happy with the changes, and yes I purchased something like 8 FN-2199, 2 new starters, 2 Poe, 2 extra cpt. Phasma, etc. I had 3 different FN deck, 1 poeMaz, 1 with phasma 2 with unkar (Now they don't fit at all).

Broken stuff MUST be repaired.

Chak

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Warmahordes was the first game i saw that used the card system and it wasnt exactly perfect either.

In xwing i have no issues keeping all the faqs straight. Yeah, theres a lot of them but unless it falls under the timing chart theyre pretty simple changes.

However, for Destiny i do hope they at least say something like "You may print off errata'd cards and put them in the sleeves with the original" because this game is only a year-ish old and it already has WAY more cards than xwing. In 3 or so years it will get ridiculous, especially with complete overhauls of the card as opposed to tweaking the timing or just removing 1 word.
It's A Trap! for instance isnt even remotely the same card now. No ambush and heavily changed effect.

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The only thing I hate about the new RRG is that it goes into effect November 6th......and our National Championship is the day before:(

(Also, I think It’s a Trap was nerfed too much, but oh well)

Other than that, great, great stuff for the game!

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2 hours ago, Palpster said:

The only thing I hate about the new RRG is that it goes into effect November 6th......and our National Championship is the day before:(

(Also, I think It’s a Trap was nerfed too much, but oh well)

Other than that, great, great stuff for the game!

The Marshall can declare usage of the new RRG in advance of the event, as it’s their discretion.

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4 hours ago, Destraa said:

The Marshall can declare usage of the new RRG in advance of the event, as it’s their discretion.

Yeeeaaahh, except they didn’t, but specifically stated on their FB page that the new RRG would not be in effect for this event.

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