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New Rules Reference Guide

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2 minutes ago, PeoplesChampion said:

Actually that’s always been the rule, they just clarified it with Hutt Ties. 

Yeah i know, but afaik nothing actually directly stated you could select 0.
There just wasnt anything saying you couldnt either.

Theres what 6 cards that give your opponent a choice, one is rather mean other is more annoying than anything else? All of these cards are useless because they are overcosted for the "annoying" half of it.

Edited by Vineheart01

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5 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Rey is not completely untouched.  She gets hit pretty hard by the once per round limit on replacing upgrades.

I'm not completely unsympathetic to the people who see the value of their collections go down.  But the health of the game has to take priority.  And, again, there will be a direct correlation between card power and value.  Basing errata decisions on value is completely self-contradictory.

I don’t think that hits Rey that hard. She usually just does Force Speed+ Vibroknife, and often never needs even one overwrite. 

I’m not saying I’m blind to Poe, but the problems were his partners, Rey and Maz. They should have been the ones changed.

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Interesting changes.

A number here predicted the change to Vibroknife. I for one did not see it as an issue but if the design team did then I will bow to their superior experience and say "I was wrong". 

The limit to Upgrades hits every Action Cheat character but obviously hits Rey (old) and FN the hardest. Rey still is nasty as playing an Ambush on her still yields two more actions. Which means she can roll and resolve. 

The point change list is also interesting. Basically they have nerfed hard Poe-Maz, FN decks, Thrunkar, 2 Player Phasma decks and indeed pretty much all of the current Tier 1s in the meta.

As a side effect this errata definitely slows the game down some. Which both brings the Empire at War Support cards into sharper focus and helps Mill decks. And now I have two Mill decks ready to rock (eJyn-Maz and ePadme - eLando). 

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39 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Yeah i know, but afaik nothing actually directly stated you could select 0.

LET THE WOOKIE WIN (130)
• Either option can be chosen, even if there are fewer than 2 dice in the pool or no exhausted characters.

Selecting the damage option with zero exhausted characters qualifies.

 

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6 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Well, health of the game should benefit collections long term.  

 

Thats the thing, alot of those who are worried about their collections value within the first YEAR of a game arnt here for the long haul. They are here to get in, get a lot of high value stuff, sell it at a high price, and get out. Someone who is here for the game worries about the games health first and the ROI second.

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18 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

I think whoever's playing Rey in your area is doing it wrong then.

 

Maybe you’re right, but I don’t see Rey doing more than one overwrite a round being neccesary to be useful. It’s unrealistic to expect to draw more than two ambush weapons a round, in my opinion, and if you are drawing that many ambush weapons, you don’t have enough dice control in your hand and probably won’t have enough discards for rerolls.

I can still play Force Speed > play Holdout Blaster > overwrite Holdout for Vibroknife > roll in > reroll if neccesary > Force Speed special > roll in other character > reroll if I haven’t already done so > resolve all in one turn.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think we’ll see any less Rey decks (other than Poe/Rey, because they nerfed Poe).

And I still think that nerfing Maz was much more neccesary than nerfing Poe. We’re gonna see Maz decks all over the place now. 

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17 minutes ago, GamerGuy1984 said:

Thats the thing, alot of those who are worried about their collections value within the first YEAR of a game arnt here for the long haul. They are here to get in, get a lot of high value stuff, sell it at a high price, and get out. Someone who is here for the game worries about the games health first and the ROI second.

I agree! And like I said, my collection is worthless if nobody plays, and I’m very hopeful that this will bring in new players!

Also, I don’t really care, because I wasn’t planning on selling out anyway. All I wanted to express was that I’m a little worried that the game now has a precedent for very aggressive and frequent errata, and I would like my old cards to remain powerful - I don’t like power creep (errata induced or otherwise). The “balance to the Force section” is a huge step up from X-Wing though, because it’s neat, concise, and stuff can be removed from the list if it’s no longer a problem. 

I don’t want to give the impression that I’m unhappy with the errata - I’m very hopeful that this will be a much better, more balanced game than other FFG games, and I think this is a huge step in the right direction! 

Also, as a side-note, I’m glad FN-2199 and Unkar Plutt won’t dominate the meta anymore, because they’re such obscure characters! I’m sick of X-Wing being dominated by characters with just a couple seconds of screen time, or, even worse, completely non-canonical characters from old video games. 

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15 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I can still play Force Speed > play Holdout Blaster > overwrite Holdout for Vibroknife > roll in > reroll if neccesary > Force Speed special > roll in other character > reroll if I haven’t already done so > resolve all in one turn.

Sure, but you're doing it once.  You're not going to Starship Graveyard the Holdout Blaster back and cycle it again next turn.  If you do get the cards to do this next turn (say you draw another ambush) you're going to have to pay your 2 resources to make the same thing happen again.  Also, if you're using a free overwrite to get the extra action, you're not using it to save resources on upgrades that will stay in play and improve your board state.

The opportunity cost for doing what Rey does has MASSIVELY increased.

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3 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Sure, but you're doing it once.  You're not going to Starship Graveyard the Holdout Blaster back and cycle it again next turn.  If you do get the cards to do this next turn (say you draw another ambush) you're going to have to pay your 2 resources to make the same thing happen again.  Also, if you're using a free overwrite to get the extra action, you're not using it to save resources on upgrades that will stay in play and improve your board state.

The opportunity cost for doing what Rey does has MASSIVELY increased.

Yep. Like I said, happy to be proven wrong, I just don’t think that Destiny is a popular enough game to get enough data points to actually measure this rule change’s effect on Rey. I think it will end up being statistically irrelevant - lost in the noise of the new meta shakeup. 

Rey decks are also the best meta decks that weren’t directly affected by this, so I’m guessing her numbers will go up, with less competition from newPhasma, FN, and Unkar.

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32 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Yep. Like I said, happy to be proven wrong, I just don’t think that Destiny is a popular enough game to get enough data points to actually measure this rule change’s effect on Rey. I think it will end up being statistically irrelevant - lost in the noise of the new meta shakeup. 

Rey decks are also the best meta decks that weren’t directly affected by this, so I’m guessing her numbers will go up, with less competition from newPhasma, FN, and Unkar.

It may, but I don’t think we’ve seen the last of competitive FN or, most certainly, Phasma2. I’ve already adjusted my red/yellow Villain deck to eBossk/ePhasma2 with what looks like will be minimal impact other than losing Cad’s extreme action economy. Depending on testing, I may switch eBossk for eJango (who perfect pairs with ePhasma even with her new 10/14).

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I would rather they dumb down FN’s ability without the point jump. Make his ability  available only once per round, and if you resolved a rolled in weapon it stays resolved. That’s how I played him at first and didn’t seem OP at all. 

Kylo2 didn’t get touched so I’m sure the next best decks will be the ones he pairs up with best. He sucks the fun out of mono decks and sees no play at games in my house.  

Didnt like seeing Unks getting hit, but I guess he needed it.

Heres hoping things get tested better in the future. Whether it fixes a few tier 1 decks or not, rules changes like these on characters is not a good thing for potential new and casual players.

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16 minutes ago, Piscettios said:

I would rather they dumb down FN’s ability without the point jump. Make his ability  available only once per round, and if you resolved a rolled in weapon it stays resolved. That’s how I played him at first and didn’t seem OP at all. 

Kylo2 didn’t get touched so I’m sure the next best decks will be the ones he pairs up with best. He sucks the fun out of mono decks and sees no play at games in my house.  

Didnt like seeing Unks getting hit, but I guess he needed it.

Heres hoping things get tested better in the future. Whether it fixes a few tier 1 decks or not, rules changes like these on characters is not a good thing for potential new and casual players.

The change to overwrite did a lot to end his reign regardless of the point increase.

Kylo2 now doesn’t really have a super effective partner anymore. We’ll likely see old Kylo make a resurgence along with Emo Twins, bringing mono back into play, as you can still run eVader2 and eKylo to great effect.

Unkar’s increase was directed at the ultra-control and turn 1 crime lording Thrawnkar.

There’s where you’re wrong. MtG has been doing similar for nearly 20 years and has done fine with aggressive fixes like we’ve seen. ****, they’ve done more aggressive as well. As has Yu-Gi-Oh! And Pokémon. Both of which are still flourishing a decade after inception. This is nothing new, nor unhealthy for a CCG.

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8 minutes ago, Destraa said:

The change to overwrite did a lot to end his reign regardless of the point increase.

Kylo2 now doesn’t really have a super effective partner anymore. We’ll likely see old Kylo make a resurgence along with Emo Twins, bringing mono back into play, as you can still run eVader2 and eKylo to great effect.

Unkar’s increase was directed at the ultra-control and turn 1 crime lording Thrawnkar.

There’s where you’re wrong. MtG has been doing similar for nearly 20 years and has done fine with aggressive fixes like we’ve seen. ****, they’ve done more aggressive as well. As has Yu-Gi-Oh! And Pokémon. Both of which are still flourishing a decade after inception. This is nothing new, nor unhealthy for a CCG.

Exactly this right now. With these changes I am looking at a lot more deck variety, and anyone that thinks Thrawnkar is going to outright disappear I think is mistaken, I think it is still good enough that you can run Unkar at 1 Die and still pull off some sick nasty plays + have a point left over for 1 point plots when they come out, or run 1 die Thrawn with 2 Unkar and have enough points left over for 2 point plots, I think its still a viable deck just not as overbearing. Heck if they JUST changed the points and didn't do any rulling for the overwrites FN Kylo would have still been super strong since the extra dice on FN aren't as strong as his ability, and his ability still allows you to play 2 weapons on him a turn so I think he is still going to see play in some locations.

The Vibro changes are also super interesting when you start looking at having a lot of modifiers in your deck, either having them add to the die you are adding too with vibros modifier, or having multiple modifiers adding onto the vibros damage, it also means those that want to go for a "unblockable" deck aren't over stacking cards for a theme since no one runs shields. People will run shields which mean intimidate, jedi rival, Lightsabers special sides, Synchronicity and Vibro AX all have renewed strength as an offensive finishing tool.

Edited by tunewalker

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31 minutes ago, Piscettios said:

Whether it fixes a few tier 1 decks or not, rules changes like these on characters is not a good thing for potential new and casual players.

The only people who think errata is a problem for new players are veteran players who've been conditioned by WotC to prefer banning cards.

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The only thing that I hope happens with these changes is that FFG releases the cards affected with points changes new cards for people who currently have them. I feel it's one thing to have a change in the text and just use a PDF errata but to change a key component of a card is another.

Whether they are packed into a new starter or ordered online for a buck a set I don't care just let us get our hands on them.

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1 minute ago, Thanoseid said:

I feel it's one thing to have a change in the text and just use a PDF errata but to change a key component of a card is another.

So the game text is not a key component of a card?  How does that work?

From a practical enforcement standpoint, text is FAR trickier.  Point costs can and will be easily verified at the beginning of a tournament.  Honestly, nobody other than the TO needs to know anything but what they're using.  Game text is much more likely to be an issue if either or both players have missed the errata.

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The point of game text over static components I would use FN as an example. His point cost is printed there and is constant. Nobody would ever assume that his point cost would/should change same goes for his health, color etc. Text at times is up for interpretation. There are a lot of cards that have differing opinions just by the wording. Now with FN it would be easier to update the rules by saying "Can only replace an upgrade once a round" as opposed to adding that text to his card and then Rey's and further onto other characters who would benefit from this same situation.

We all knew that there would be changes to actual wording on cards/characters but let's be honest how many of us really thought there would be a points cost change?

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12 minutes ago, Thanoseid said:

The point of game text over static components I would use FN as an example. His point cost is printed there and is constant. Nobody would ever assume that his point cost would/should change same goes for his health, color etc. Text at times is up for interpretation. There are a lot of cards that have differing opinions just by the wording. Now with FN it would be easier to update the rules by saying "Can only replace an upgrade once a round" as opposed to adding that text to his card and then Rey's and further onto other characters who would benefit from this same situation.

We all knew that there would be changes to actual wording on cards/characters but let's be honest how many of us really thought there would be a points cost change?

I had a feeling, if only to break up the overly dominant power couples that were permeating the meta to a horrendously stagnant point. The last sets of Nationals showed us that, with very little other than eKylo2/eFN And eCad/ePhasma2 being played in any capacity as opposed to pre EAW and 2P box releases.

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1 hour ago, Piscettios said:

Heres hoping things get tested better in the future. Whether it fixes a few tier 1 decks or not, rules changes like these on characters is not a good thing for potential new and casual players.

Jeremy said " I feel these changes will improve the health of the game and, as the game’s new lead designer, am committed to using all the tools at my disposal to maintain an exciting and balanced metagame in the future!"

I think these changes are bold and decisive, Jeremy makes me hopeful of good things to come.

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