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Norr-Saba

The polarizing subject of the mandalorians

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Traviss’s work was great, and her influence on Mandalorian culture is a million times better than canon. I can understand why Disney did what they did, the EU had ran out of room... but the EU is still better than what they’re providing.

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For me, one of the things I dislike about Traviss mandalorians is the noble savage trope. Mind you that's not just mandalorians in Star Wars, but they're not the focus now.

 

Mandalorians are simply better at everything because they're closer to nature. They live like agrarian nomads despite being a spacefaring people, they produce their weapons and gear with their village blacksmiths and weaponsmiths. Everything being built by hand for a specific purpose and therefore superior. Which really doesn't make sense if they're supposed to be a faction that can pose a galactic player. Large scale production and outfitting of a proper army requires industry. Something we actually see the Death Watch, of all people, doing in TCW where they have factories on Concord Dawn, churning out armour and weapons for the Death Watch.

 

That's not to say I hate all of Traviss Mando stuff. I do like the fleshed out culture, I definately love the aspect of allowing various species to join provided they learn the language and wear the armour. Because that is one of the ways to get bodies into those armours to wage large wars.

 

But the good doesn't really outweigh the, in my own opinion, bad of having a lifestyle that's close to nature being morally superior and translating into a superiority in all other fields. 

 

I do like the new stuff from TCW and Rebels though. The new mandlorians were an interesting direction to take them, as well as the ultimate failure of the new mandalorians. That together with showing some clans that weren't tied to Mandalore the planet was pretty nice, the agenda that Satine was pushing doesn't seem to have been as universal as she was hoping. It was also nice seeing some non-white and blonde mandalorians in the starting episodes of the last season of Rebels.

TL:DR, dislike noble savages/Proud warrior race living close to nature. Do like parts of the more fleshed culture. Have hopes for the future of a faction I have loved since the Kotor days.

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5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

She has a clone teach a Jedi Padawan how to better use a lightsaber in combat. Even tough a Padawan would have been training since she was a small kid (as per Attack of the Clones).

She also had Jaina Solo, (at the time an experienced Jedi Knight and war veteran) get slapped around by Boba Fett and chided for relying on her Force sensitivity (which he could bypass and blindside her, because of... mandalorian awesomeness?), despite the fact she just fought (and won) a war against an enemy who's entire shtick is that they are invisible to the force. Boba is also touted as some kind of big deal Jedi hunter, despite the fact that I can't really recall him killing a single Jedi. Jango managed to off one on Geonosis, and did fairly well vs Obi-wan when he had a ship to back him up but he didn't stand a chance against Mace Windu, but Boba on the other hand... has at best survived Vader a few times (which is arguably pretty impressive, but the canonicity of those comics were questionable long before Disney wiped away the EU).

Edited by penpenpen

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1 hour ago, Darth Revenant said:

For me, one of the things I dislike about Traviss mandalorians is the noble savage trope. Mind you that's not just mandalorians in Star Wars, but they're not the focus now.

 

Mandalorians are simply better at everything because they're closer to nature. They live like agrarian nomads despite being a spacefaring people, they produce their weapons and gear with their village blacksmiths and weaponsmiths. Everything being built by hand for a specific purpose and therefore superior. Which really doesn't make sense if they're supposed to be a faction that can pose a galactic player. Large scale production and outfitting of a proper army requires industry. Something we actually see the Death Watch, of all people, doing in TCW where they have factories on Concord Dawn, churning out armour and weapons for the Death Watch.

 

That's not to say I hate all of Traviss Mando stuff. I do like the fleshed out culture, I definately love the aspect of allowing various species to join provided they learn the language and wear the armour. Because that is one of the ways to get bodies into those armours to wage large wars.

 

But the good doesn't really outweigh the, in my own opinion, bad of having a lifestyle that's close to nature being morally superior and translating into a superiority in all other fields. 

 

I do like the new stuff from TCW and Rebels though. The new mandlorians were an interesting direction to take them, as well as the ultimate failure of the new mandalorians. That together with showing some clans that weren't tied to Mandalore the planet was pretty nice, the agenda that Satine was pushing doesn't seem to have been as universal as she was hoping. It was also nice seeing some non-white and blonde mandalorians in the starting episodes of the last season of Rebels.

TL:DR, dislike noble savages/Proud warrior race living close to nature. Do like parts of the more fleshed culture. Have hopes for the future of a faction I have loved since the Kotor days.

You know this plays a great deal with how I’m starting to reconcile the mandalorians in my head. I’ve posted before that I draw on experiences of my own culture as a Palestinian to understand mandalorians primarily because of our agrarian close to the land society , and I agree with you that the presentation of Mandalorians as a space faring warrior group who are somehow not industrialized is pretty bizarre.

to me this likely represents probably some flaws that Travis had in understanding her own subject matter and the way she approached them, which is sort of in the manner of a white British anthropologist. 

Now I don’t know how familiar everyone is with the way that British anthropology traditionally functioned but it was very prejudicial and basically meant to justify the otherness of groups and often overstated one part of their culture in order to make a point that was contrary to reality (something that I’ve come to understand Travis is very guilty of thanks to this thread)

the reason why I brought up my own culture is because traditionally before we were colonized we had villiage palestinians, city palestinians, and Bedouin’s (nomadic palestinians) so to me travis’s Work strikes me as someone who looked exclusively at the villiage mandalorians and then for some reason decided that they were the only ones there and that they were somehow responsible for all of the technology that helped their conquests, which doesn’t make sense at all and I agree. Obviously there would be the villiage smith that has a keener understanding of how to manufacture traditional beskar but then not all mandalorian armor was made of beskar and it would be ridiculous for it to be so, idk I’m starting to realize a lot of problems with the way she started to mess things up after laying the solid ground work,

basically the same way that it’s annoying with Rowling trying to edit her series after it’s alreadynpublished through tweets. 

And yea I basically agree with everything you wrote

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My dislike has nothing to do with Travis' books, though from what I hear about her writing, I know I wouldn't like them.

My dislike of the Mandos is pretty much entirely based on the fan obsession with them for decades, based off one guy who really wasn't as awesome as people like to remember him to be in the films.   He didn't actually shoot anyone in all of his on screen appearances, he took a few pot shots at Luke in Empire (while running away), failed to hit him again in Return while he was fighting other people, and got punked by a blind guy with a stick who didn't even know he was there and fell to his death.   Yeah, elite warrior of the galaxy my ****:P  

In my opinion, the Glory That Is Boba Fett And the Mandalorian Race, is utter shite, trumped up by fans who have inflated his/their importance based off nothing other than "but he looks so cool!! So he has to be awesome!"    

Which makes me just roll my eyes and go "Yeah...uh, no, sorry no."   

And the fact that they have since been inflated to "this power that rivaled the Jedi!" is utter fan **** material, that just makes me sigh and remember why I never dove head first into the Star Wars fanfiction that was the EU/Legends.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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KFF sums up my feelings pretty well. The fanwank that is the Mandolorians got even worse when George Lucas started playing into it. Like digitally inserting Boba Fett into that deleted scene from A New Hope where Han talks to Jabba—"Hey, let's add Boba Fett for no reason... And have him look directly at the camera! The fans will love that!" Then when he added Jango Fett to the Prequels and made all the clone troopers copies of him? Such utter fanwankery. So over the top and unnecessary. I think all this was Lucas's nod to fans (and a partial apology for Jar Jar Banks), but it always struck me as lame to the extreme.

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@KungFuFerret @SavageBob You know i actually have an explanation for that. 

Do you recall how Darth Maul was in all of the promotional art for the phantom menace, the commercials focused on him, and even the name of the movie aluded to a large part for him in the story, and then we got basically nothing. Wel the same thing happened to Boba Fett.

originally fett was supposed to have a much larger part in the movies he played in, and he featured prominently in the promotional art and in many cases where their were starwars special events they had Boba Fett there because it was easier than having the actual three main actors at events. 

So the reason why their is so much built up around bobs fett is in part because they built him up so much before the release of the original trilogy, and then they left him a mystery, creating the speculation and desire for answers by the fans. 

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1 minute ago, Norr-Saba said:

@KungFuFerret @SavageBob You know i actually have an explanation for that. 

Do you recall how Darth Maul was in all of the promotional art for the phantom menace, the commercials focused on him, and even the name of the movie aluded to a large part for him in the story, and then we got basically nothing. Wel the same thing happened to Boba Fett.

originally fett was supposed to have a much larger part in the movies he played in, and he featured prominently in the promotional art and in many cases where their were starwars special events they had Boba Fett there because it was easier than having the actual three main actors at events. 

So the reason why their is so much built up around bobs fett is in part because they built him up so much before the release of the original trilogy, and then they left him a mystery, creating the speculation and desire for answers by the fans. 

That doesn't mean it's warranted, or even accurately reflected in the material.   

I mean, if Boba Fett had had a scene like Legolas did in the LOTR series, where he ends up becoming this one elf killing machine, then I would say it's at least somewhat justified that the Mandalorians are a species of Space Spartan Badarses.  But it's not there.  Which means it's been entirely fabricated, whole cloth, by the fans.

I'm well aware of how hype can inflate things, that doesn't mean you should believe the hype :D  

And yes, having a guy with a mask, meaning you could stick any old intern into the suit, is WAY easier than trying to get 3 of the biggest stars at the time together for a series of appearances  :D  

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Bobba Fett never achieved anything relevant on screen. 

 

Cad Bane is a MUCH better bounty Hunter and Jedi opponent. And he looks.cooler as well. He doesn't fly, though. 

 

There is a fanmade Mail short where he fights several Jedis, that had it been the intro to Phantom Menace we would all have been waiting for the big fuel in the end jumping in our seat at the cinema. As it is, he is just as big a ******** as bobba. A pitty, because he does look cool. 

 

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Note that hype also tried to make Aura Sing and Captain Phasma into bad-a fan favorites, but the films relegated them to almost nothingness. I can see that the same happened to Boba Fett.

And I should clarify that I don't begrudge fans who like Mandalorians or Boba and Jango (no matter how the new canon retcons them). I love 3PO, R2, and Ewoks, and I know many don't. I'm glad it's a big fandom. I just don't personally get the Mandolorian worship.

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30 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

Note that hype also tried to make Aura Sing and Captain Phasma into bad-a fan favorites, but the films relegated them to almost nothingness. I can see that the same happened to Boba Fett.

And I should clarify that I don't begrudge fans who like Mandalorians or Boba and Jango (no matter how the new canon retcons them). I love 3PO, R2, and Ewoks, and I know many don't. I'm glad it's a big fandom. I just don't personally get the Mandolorian worship.

I'm willing to give Captain Phasma the benefit of the doubt, as she isn't dead, and thus can potentially show her stuff later on in the trilogy.   If her character was planned over a 3 film arc, I don't really have a problem with her not being big right now.   And given the clips in the Last Jedi trailer, it looks like she's actually going to do stuff.  So my jury is still out on if she is just an over-hyped character or not.  :)  

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46 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

Except now Dave Filoni has said that George Lucas said Jango wasn't Mandalorian, and Pablo Hidalgo reiterated that.

It's also been said by a Mandalorian politician that Jango was just someone who stole the armor,  IIRC.  It's in Clone Wars.

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1 hour ago, MonCal said:

Bobba Fett never achieved anything relevant on screen. 

 

Cad Bane is a MUCH better bounty Hunter and Jedi opponent. And he looks.cooler as well. He doesn't fly, though. 

 

There is a fanmade Mail short where he fights several Jedis, that had it been the intro to Phantom Menace we would all have been waiting for the big fuel in the end jumping in our seat at the cinema. As it is, he is just as big a ******** as bobba. A pitty, because he does look cool. 

 

Cad Bane can fly.

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58 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's also been said by a Mandalorian politician that Jango was just someone who stole the armor,  IIRC.  It's in Clone Wars.

Right, I remember that episode, which means that Boba Fett (Jango's clone) isn't Mandalorian either, which means that Boba Fett...the poster boy for Mandalorian Awesomeness, isn't Mandalorian.  :D Which amuses me to no end.   

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1 hour ago, Blackbird888 said:

Except now Dave Filoni has said that George Lucas said Jango wasn't Mandalorian, and Pablo Hidalgo reiterated that.

 

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's also been said by a Mandalorian politician that Jango was just someone who stole the armor,  IIRC.  It's in Clone Wars.

 

2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Right, I remember that episode, which means that Boba Fett (Jango's clone) isn't Mandalorian either, which means that Boba Fett...the poster boy for Mandalorian Awesomeness, isn't Mandalorian.  :D Which amuses me to no end.   

However, those statements can also be read differently too. According to the old lore, Jango was born on Concord Dawn, not Mandalore. Thus, while Concord Dawn is a Mandalorian colony world, the natives could be considered "non-Mandalorian" because they weren't from Mandalore proper, while still being Mandalorian by culture. This is how I view Prime Minister Almec's statement. 

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I comment, as a Person whose experience about Mandaloreans can be summed up to: OT, PT, TCW, Rebels, and one old comic were Bobba Fett fought with vader and won. I haven't read any pre disney Mandalorean books, partially because my image of them (and Travis' books) can be summed up to one quote (which itself is a hyberpole): "Hey, did you hear about new Travis book? I heard that there's a mandalorean there who can fart lightnings which kills jedi. And he scares ten jedi away by shouting boo." So, even though I haven't read the books, my view is definitely not objective.

In the Clone Wars I liked the pacifistic mandalorean's and Death watch. In the Rebels I hate Sabine because I feel she's kind of Mary Sue without any weaknesses (intellectually I understand this is not true, her overconfidence is one of her flaws). My favourite scene in season two was when

Sabine shot Vader, and Vader reflected her shots back to her.

  I liked the mandaloreans in Protector of Concord Dawn, as they were more than one dimensional. And Trials of Dark Saber was pain to watch. Because of good-at-everything Sabine again was good at everything (again intellectually I know it wasn't that bad, and she had redeeming weaknesses, but emotionally I hated how it was done). Legacy of Mandalore wasn't that bad, but I didn't particularly like that. I haven't yet seen the first episodes of season 4, but I'm a bit hesitant about them. I'd kind of like to see more about stuff Mandalorean society. And some day, when I'm detached enough from my emotions, I will read some Travis books, just to see what do I think about them. This all probably relates to the fact I always find multidimensional characters with flaws more interesting than über tough guys/gals whos only weakness is their perfection. 

The thing which bugged me most about the old Fett comic was that if Fett is in level with (or better than) Vader, why is he mere Bounty Hunter. The character doesn't have any room to grow anymore.

Summary: As whole I don't have huge feelings about mandaloreans. In current canon they have more good qualities than bad. If I use mandalorean's in our game, I will definitely try to make them multidimensional and interesting characters, and probably I will try to bring some of their society's disunity to game. 

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8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

 

However, those statements can also be read differently too. According to the old lore, Jango was born on Concord Dawn, not Mandalore. Thus, while Concord Dawn is a Mandalorian colony world, the natives could be considered "non-Mandalorian" because they weren't from Mandalore proper, while still being Mandalorian by culture. This is how I view Prime Minister Almec's statement. 

One of the Star Wars YouTubers has as his current head canon that Almec's pulled the "No True Scotsman" argument. Probably because Jango once put sugar in his porridge or something like that.

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2 minutes ago, BronzeDog said:

One of the Star Wars YouTubers has as his current head canon that Almec's pulled the "No True Scotsman" argument. Probably because Jango once put sugar in his porridge or something like that.

Exactly. As Obi Wan told Luke. "The truths we cling to depend greatly on our on point of view."

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16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

 

However, those statements can also be read differently too. According to the old lore, Jango was born on Concord Dawn, not Mandalore. Thus, while Concord Dawn is a Mandalorian colony world, the natives could be considered "non-Mandalorian" because they weren't from Mandalore proper, while still being Mandalorian by culture. This is how I view Prime Minister Almec's statement. 

Was Jango being born on Concord Dawn movie canon? Because that's the only thing that matters for Clone Wars.

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6 minutes ago, BronzeDog said:

One of the Star Wars YouTubers has as his current head canon that Almec's pulled the "No True Scotsman" argument. Probably because Jango once put sugar in his porridge or something like that.

Or because Jango was used to build a clone army that killed millions when they turned into the Stormtroopers for a cackling tyrant named Palpatine.  

 

 

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

 

However, those statements can also be read differently too. According to the old lore, Jango was born on Concord Dawn, not Mandalore. Thus, while Concord Dawn is a Mandalorian colony world, the natives could be considered "non-Mandalorian" because they weren't from Mandalore proper, while still being Mandalorian by culture. This is how I view Prime Minister Almec's statement. 

And I view it the other way.  Since it's left entirely up to audience interpretation, we can't know, and all we can do, is speculate and create our own history about the Mandalorians, which is exactly the problem in the first place as far as I'm concerned.  I mean if the guy who directed that episode has flat out said that Jango wasn't a Mando, then I think that's pretty clear.   

Let me clarify that a bit, as I posted it and then added, and then looked it over again.   In-Universe, it's a somewhat vague statement, that obviously can be interpreted different ways, as evidenced by your and my opposite views on what he meant.  However, Out of Universe, from the people who made the show, they seemed to be WAY more clear and direct on the subject.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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In regards to Captain Phasma, I didn't any of the media coverage or trailers so I had no expectation of her; just I find it amusing that the media hyped her to be the new big bad; a strong and stable character (which as a Brit, I dictate as the SS policy; because I find my leaders as likeable as cancer) a strong female antagonist e.c.t. My problem probably isn't so much star wars, but Media's ability to hyper examine anything is silly. This extends to pretty much anything Star Wars, where rogue 1 was a rather uninspiring movie saved by frequent nods to the original material like a heroin addict taking frequent hits, where I just sat watching it thinking "when is this movie going to actually start? This is all pretty uninspiring stuff." It's really sad when I enjoy the cameos more then the actual plot itself and as such I am using episode 8 as the benchmark to determine whether I will continue to watch these movies; I did enjoy episode 7, I just want new ground to be covered.

To be fair to Boba his own screen appearance was fairly understated; he was a clearly talented guy who tracked solo; and the big bad henchman of Jabba the Hutt. Just I'll probably describe the problem below.

I have always treated the star wars books as generally one tier below alternative books. Quite literally people had their own interpretations of the star wars fluff and this created a universe that ranged from the fantasy epic (which was the original epic) to anime weeboism ("I'm dark Vader, I killed a entire rebel army single highhandedly, your midichorloians are no match for mine!") and everything in between, including several versions of Han Solo with slightly different names. There have been a few I've picked up, but usually if I wanted a really compelling read I would read something else. There's plenty of fiction author's who could do with the revenue that isn't being bankrolled by the Star Wars hype engine. These days Disney seems to want to keep a fairly tight grip on what is coming out; Lost Stars is one of the best books I've found thus far describing the lore the empire and about how good people become bad.

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12 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Was Jango being born on Concord Dawn movie canon? Because that's the only thing that matters for Clone Wars.

Jango's place of birth was never revealed in the movies or Clone Wars. It was only established in the Dark Horse comics. This is why I specifically stated the Old Lore

11 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Or because Jango was used to build a clone army that killed millions when they turned into the Stormtroopers for a cackling tyrant named Palpatine.  

 

 

And I view it the other way.  Since it's left entirely up to audience interpretation, we can't know, and all we can do, is speculate and create our own history about the Mandalorians, which is exactly the problem in the first place as far as I'm concerned.  I mean if the guy who directed that episode has flat out said that Jango wasn't a Mando, then I think that's pretty clear.   

Let me clarify that a bit, as I posted it and then added, and then looked it over again.   In-Universe, it's a somewhat vague statement, that obviously can be interpreted different ways, as evidenced by your and my opposite views on what he meant.  However, Out of Universe, from the people who made the show, they seemed to be WAY more clear and direct on the subject.

All Filoni really made about it was that Jango and Boba Fett were Bounty Hunters, and thus not necessarily Mandalorian. The old lore published by Dark Horse Comics before the Disney buy-out, established Jango as being from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian colony. Thus, he could be considered not a "true" Mandalorian by blood. That does not preclude them from being Mandalorian by culture.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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