Force Push

[Greyxi 19]

I know there is an endless discussion, if it is allowed to move people with "move"
I still miss the "Force Push" which has knock down and does strain damage, to be "effective" in combat.
Are there anywhere rules for this kind of the beloved force power?

[whafrog 10,384]

I have an alternate Move power, where Push is a ranged attack at max Short range.  At it's base it does no damage, pushes the target away by one range band, and has the Knockdown and Disorient qualities.  On a Triumph it can do Willpower Strain (+success) damage.  An upgrade later in the tree does Strain damage by default, and allows extra pips to be spent to add Willpower Strain damage, though I'm considering folding this into the base Push upgrade.  It can be resisted by Discipline (Force Sensitives only), or Athletics or Coordination.

To make room for different applications I've replaced most of Strength upgrades:  there is only one, because in my game you need an extra pip per Silhouette.

However, you wouldn't have to change the rest of the tree if you wanted to codify Push as a "possible application" of the existing Control upgrade.  I would just say that you could only push targets at Engaged or Short range (range upgrades notwithstanding), that it has the Knockdown and Disorient qualities.  I'm not sure I'd keep the damage the same as the existing...I think it's overkill, but YMMV.

[KungFuFerret 4,120]

1 hour ago, Greyxi said:

I know there is an endless discussion, if it is allowed to move people with "move"
 

Where is this endless discussion?    Move let's you pick up objects based on silhouette size.  If you can Move Sil 1 objects, you can Move people, end of story.  

1 hour ago, Greyxi said:

I still miss the "Force Push" which has knock down and does strain damage, to be "effective" in combat.
 

And inflicting (Sil 1 x 10) damage to them by slamming them into the ground or a wall isn't good enough for you?    

1 hour ago, Greyxi said:

Are there anywhere rules for this kind of the beloved force power?

Yes, look under the Force Power entry for Move     

Seriously, you can totally do what you want to do with Force Push, with Move.    It's mostly just narrative description.

[ASCI Blue 129]

What the Ferret said, had a player in a game who used move in this fashion. 

[whafrog 10,384]

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Seriously, you can totally do what you want to do with Force Push, with Move.    It's mostly just narrative description.

Really.  Where is Knockdown?

 

[KungFuFerret 4,120]

2 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Really.  Where is Knockdown?

 

If you roll enough advantage or a triumph on the attack roll for Move, you can make them fall prone.   Or at least that's how I've always done it.

[GroggyGolem 2,848]

On 6/6/2014 at 11:06 AM, kaosoe said:

Question asked by Josep Maria

There is any official response about "Force Push" power or it isn't created? It's a variant from Move?

Answered by Sam Stewart:

Force Push, Pull, and Move are all the same thing in our game. Anything you could do with Push, you should be able to do with Move.

Follow-up Question asked by Josep Maria

How do you handle the "Knockdown" effect that we can see sometimes on the movies? Its cinematic or I miss something?

Answered by Sam Stewart:

If it's an opposed check, it would be something you could use Advantage to activate. If it's just a Force power check, then it's probably cinematic (if you're targeting minions or no-name rivals, whether or not they're knocked down probably doesn't make a huge difference either way).

From the FAQ thread.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

And you can also do Force choke effects or other "kinetic" effects through creative narration of the roll.

 

[whafrog 10,384]

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

If you roll enough advantage or a triumph on the attack roll for Move, you can make them fall prone.   Or at least that's how I've always done it.

My point is, this is not in the rules (dev response notwithstanding).  They could have included it in F&D, but didn't.  So it turns out everybody house rules this.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

Using Threat or Despair to knock someone down isn't in the rules?

Edited October 20, 2017 by Stan Fresh

[GroggyGolem 2,848]

26 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

And you can also do Force choke effects or other "kinetic" effects through creative narration of the roll.

 

Well, to be fair, Bind is the power for Force Choke. That said, narration can make your Move look like a levitation power (similar to Vader in Empire). Narration is key to a lot of things in this game.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

1 minute ago, GroggyGolem said:

Well, to be fair, Bind is the power for Force Choke. That said, narration can make your Move look like a levitation power (similar to Vader in Empire). Narration is key to a lot of things in this game.

I was thinking of the combined lifting and choking, yes.

[GroggyGolem 2,848]

...Also covered in Bind, with the Control: Move upgrade. XD

 

However, Bind and Move are so incredibly similar narratively that they can sometimes cover what the other does.

[emsquared 779]

5 hours ago, Greyxi said:

I know there is an endless discussion, if it is allowed to move people with "move"
I still miss the "Force Push" which has knock down and does strain damage, to be "effective" in combat.
Are there anywhere rules for this kind of the beloved force power?

First of all, armor and clothing are most definitely objects. So f for no other reason the people that originally thought there was any debate, much less those that still do, are delusional.

Next, if you want to be a stickler about it, there is a control upgrade that allows you to take the same actions with move as you can with your hands.

Strictly interpreting that, you could require a Discipline check for Move to be used as a normal Brawl attack, which has your damage and Knockdown potential all built in.

Or as mentioned, you could just have the Hurl upgrade and slam them into the ground and flavor it as a push, and allow Advantage to be spent on Knockdown.

OR, you can even say they knock them down narratively with a "normal" move - no skill check (just Power), just that they don't gain the mechanical benefit of it, only the mechanical distance pushed, and this works because of the combat rounds eoncompassing many "actual" moves actions and exchanges.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

There is also the option of using the Bind power's movement upgrade. This immediately moves the target one range band either towards you (Force Pull) or away from you (Force Push) and also immobilizes the target. Also, with the addition of other upgrades, it can inflict strain (Or wounds if you're using the Dark Side). 

[KungFuFerret 4,120]

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

My point is, this is not in the rules (dev response notwithstanding).  They could have included it in F&D, but didn't.  So it turns out everybody house rules this.

Yes, they house rule this one bit, everything else the OP wanted to accomplish can be easily reflected in the RAW as I see it.

[Daeglan 5,950]

5 hours ago, whafrog said:

My point is, this is not in the rules (dev response notwithstanding).  They could have included it in F&D, but didn't.  So it turns out everybody house rules this.

Well yes it is in the rules. They just did not strangle you with limitations. You can use advantage and triumph. As knocking people down is spelled out in the chart. Doing damage is spelled out with move. 

They give you all the tools you need to accomplish the goal. But by not limiting the narrative they give us freedom to use these powers in creative ways.

[Vondy 1,460]

9 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Move let's you pick up objects based on silhouette size.  If you can Move Sil 1 objects, you can Move people...  

In general, we try to avoid objectifying people.

Unless they're hawt, of course.

Then you should definitely try to move them.

[whafrog 10,384]

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Well yes it is in the rules. They just did not strangle you with limitations. You can use advantage and triumph. As knocking people down is spelled out in the chart.

Only Brawl weapons have the Knockdown property.  To add it to Melee you need a Talent, and a Triumph.  If you could just do it on a Triumph, there would be no need for the Talent.  So where is this spelled out "in the chart"?

Edited October 21, 2017 by whafrog

[Daeglan 5,950]

Wrong. Look at the table for advantages. 3 advantage can be spent to knock a person down.

 

You know like the Devs suggest.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Daeglan

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Wrong. Look at the table for advantages. 3 advantage can be spent to knock a person down.

 

You know like the Devs suggest.

Yeah. You can use 3 Advantages to temporarily inflict something along the lines of a critical (an easy crit is being stunned, an average crit is being knocked over and suffering 1 strain, so it's well within range for that), or you can spend 3 Threats on the specific effect of knocking the target prone.

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Wrong. Look at the table for advantages. 3 advantage can be spent to knock a person down.

 

You know like the Devs suggest.

I did just look at the charts; no actually you cannot spend 3 advantages (or triumphs) to knock a person down, RAW. You can however spend 3 threat or a despair to do so.

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Yeah. You can use 3 Advantages to temporarily inflict something along the lines of a critical (an easy crit is being stunned, an average crit is being knocked over and suffering 1 strain, so it's well within range for that), or you can spend 3 Threats on the specific effect of knocking the target prone.

I am not sure where you are finding this anywhere in the rules. You cannot spend three advantages to activate a 'temporary' critical hit, and effectively 'select' what that critical hit is. You can't even do this on an triumph.

[whafrog 10,384]

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Wrong. Look at the table for advantages. 3 advantage can be spent to knock a person down.

 

You know like the Devs suggest.

As noted, you are not correct about this.  I checked both EotE and F&D.  Besides, I f it were true they'd have to revise the melee talent.

There is another concern with just piling on ad hoc weapon Qualities to Move, which is that it makes it even more potent.  It's already in the blaster rifle range at 2 pips with a single Strength upgrade, it's a missile and massive explosives beyond that, and gives Autofire if you use 3 pips.  I toned it down and added Qualities as a way to replace the damage with tactical options, instead of just throwing everything into the kitchen sink.

[whafrog 10,384]

1 hour ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

You can however spend 3 threat or a despair to do so.

...which is done to the "active character", which means this has no application for a PC using Move...