TheUnsullied

Han Solo Rogue Smuggler

30 posts in this topic

Trying to coming up with lists that can work with all the new figures and I'm wondering how everyone is feeling about the fix for Han. Is it easy to get shots off at him while blocking LoS? How quickly is he getting taken down?

 

I was theorycrafting lists to include him and I think the best I came up with was this. 

 

10 - Han Solo 

12 - eRangers

9 - rRangers

9 - mandatory Hera, Gideon and 3PO

 

I've thought of things to swap the last 9 points for and can't come up with anything I really like more than a set of rRangers. Other things I thought about were some combinations of Mak, Chopper, rAlliance Smugglers, Rebel High Command or Jarrod. Just seemed like thing lost had enough support units with so I went with the Rangers.

 

 

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I was planning to try the same list, but with Ko-Tun Feralo and Alliance Smuggler instead of the rRangers. Not sure if it's any better, but I get to try out another new character and it gives me another Leader which may be useful.

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Is Lando worth using with Han for smuggler and leader synergy or is he just bad? Could drop the r rangers for Lando and R2.

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1 hour ago, scwont said:

I was planning to try the same list, but with Ko-Tun Feralo and Alliance Smuggler instead of the rRangers. Not sure if it's any better, but I get to try out another new character and it gives me another Leader which may be useful.

I ran this tonight. It was very effective. Han is crazy good. Ko-Tun worked well, but I think I need more time to play her better. 

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I'll try him with Luke and Leia for extra attack. But I'm a bit worried cos Leia is so squishy. Well, live and learn. 😀

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7 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Is Lando worth using with Han for smuggler and leader synergy or is he just bad? Could drop the r rangers for Lando and R2.

Lando isn't good enough right now unfortunately. Maybe if he was costed at 4 he would see play 

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7 hours ago, scwont said:

I was planning to try the same list, but with Ko-Tun Feralo and Alliance Smuggler instead of the rRangers. Not sure if it's any better, but I get to try out another new character and it gives me another Leader which may be useful.

I just can't justify using Ko-Tun. She's basically a slightly better eRanger but costs 3 more than one. Your paying 3 points and only getting a green die and 2 Hp. I'd say the abilities between her and the Rangers are about equal. 

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My other suggestion would be elite Echoes instead of the reg Rangers, they are really durable and hard to get off of objectives without committing to them which pulls fire from your other more offensive figures. I've noticed that 5 HP figures with no def buffs are not that hard anymore to wipe way with a single attack, so they're not going to hold objectives that well. 

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Han is okay. The mileage you get out of him is inversely proportional to the skill of your opponent. Against someone who is willing to take shots at him when he can fire back, and let the round end with him in LoS of one of their units, he's going to put out a lot of damage. Against someone who can play around him ... not so much. Realistically, expect to get 1.5 - 2 attacks per round out of him. At best. Additionally, he can't hang back if you want to utilize him well, but he's also pretty soft. White die + cunning and 12 health is good enough for him to survive the odd shot or two, but he's not going to survive any kind of focused assault. For someone who still costs 10 points and needs to be out and in the fray to be effective, that's not great. If he's your only unit out there contesting objectives and playing the mid field, he won't see the end of round two.

In my opinion, he's T2 at best right now. In a list like Ranger Package + Han, he's not going to work. The Rangers hang back and snipe, leaving Han to do what? Solo engage the enemy list? He'll die far too fast in that situation. There may be a solid Rebel Smuggler list on the horizon, and I could see him shining in that, but it hasn't arrived just yet. Honestly I think rebels just need a cheap, solid frontline. Preferably something with three units. Han will be better once there are more options to put in a list with him.

Edited by squirrelfox
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3 minutes ago, squirrelfox said:

Han is okay. The mileage you get out of him is inversely proportional to the skill of your opponent. Against someone who is willing to take shots at him when he can fire back, and let the round end with him in LoS of one of their units, he's going to put out a lot of damage. Against someone who can play around him ... not so much. Realistically, expect to get 1.5 - 2 attacks per round out of him. At best. Additionally, he can't hang back if you want to utilize him well, but he's also pretty soft. White die + cunning and 12 health is good enough for him to survive the odd shot or two, but he's not going to survive any kind of focused assault. For someone who still costs 10 points and needs to be out and in the fray to be effective, that's not great. If he's your only unit out there contesting objectives and playing the mid field, he won't see the end of round two.

In my opinion, he's T2 at best right now. In a list like Ranger Package + Han, he's not going to work. The Rangers hang back and snipe, leaving Han to do what? Solo engage the enemy list? He'll die far too fast in that situation. There may be a solid Rebel Smuggler list on the horizon, and I could see him shining in that, but it hasn't arrived just yet. Honestly I think rebels just need a cheap, solid frontline. Preferably something with three units. Han will be better once there are more options to put in a list with him.

Won't more frontline units make it even easier for your opponent to play around his LoS fire? If you focuse him against a black die with a reroll you're looking around 7 range with no problem. Now that's going to be harder to get off with the reaction shot but still not impossible. 

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1 hour ago, squirrelfox said:

Han is okay. The mileage you get out of him is inversely proportional to the skill of your opponent. Against someone who is willing to take shots at him when he can fire back, and let the round end with him in LoS of one of their units, he's going to put out a lot of damage. Against someone who can play around him ... not so much. Realistically, expect to get 1.5 - 2 attacks per round out of him. At best. Additionally, he can't hang back if you want to utilize him well, but he's also pretty soft. White die + cunning and 12 health is good enough for him to survive the odd shot or two, but he's not going to survive any kind of focused assault. For someone who still costs 10 points and needs to be out and in the fray to be effective, that's not great.

In my opinion, he's T2 at best right now. In a list like Ranger Package + Han, he's not going to work. The Rangers hang back and snipe, leaving Han to do what? Tank the enemy list? He'll die far too fast in that situation. There may be a solid Rebel Smuggler list on the horizon, and I could see him shining in that, but it hasn't arrived just yet. Honestly I think rebels just need a cheap, solid frontline. Preferably something with three units. Han will be better once there are more options to put in a list with him.

Unless you're activating Han first every round, you get to put him in a spot where he'll have line of sight to an enemy that's already moved that round, so it's not completely up to your opponent whether or not you get to trigger Rogue Smuggler each round. 

But I agree with everything else you're saying, he doesn't feel like he has a lot of synergy with the rangers since he also wants to hang back and snipe, so they want some beefy figures they can hide behind. 

1 hour ago, TheUnsullied said:

Won't more frontline units make it even easier for your opponent to play around his LoS fire? If you focuse him against a black die with a reroll you're looking around 7 range with no problem. Now that's going to be harder to get off with the reaction shot but still not impossible. 

Frontline doesn't necessarily mean melee units, can just be really tanky ranged figures that can stand in the frontline to absorb shots and block LoS to your backline figures without blocking their LoS. Echoes are perfect for this, I basically use them as movable cover to allow my squishier figures to move into the fight without having to take a ton of sniper fire. 

I bet Han would do well in a list with Chewie, as crazy as that sounds. Han is a glass machine gun which makes him a natural target, but Debts Repayed means your opponent knows they will be punished for targeting him, both by Chewie and by Hans return fire ability. So they go after Chewie, which lets Han become an endgame wrecking ball. 

But for this specific list, I think a set of elite Echoes will do really well as meatshields for Han and the Rangers to hide behind and snipe from. 

edit: I should say I haven't played with new Han yet, so everything I say is conjecture. I'm def going to get him to the table in my next skirmish sesh now that I have my HotE box. 

Edited by Tvboy

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4 hours ago, TheUnsullied said:

Won't more frontline units make it even easier for your opponent to play around his LoS fire? If you focuse him against a black die with a reroll you're looking around 7 range with no problem. Now that's going to be harder to get off with the reaction shot but still not impossible. 

Sure, more bodies on the field means more potential ways to avoid LoS on Han. But really what Han (and a Rebel Smuggler list in general) would want to do is win objectives, and punish your opponent hard for contesting them. Han can do that. If you come to him, then he's suddenly getting off all three attacks reliably, and that's going to hurt. If your opponent stays back and lets you grab the objectives, you're winning. Unfortunately right now Han is pretty lonely out there on the board. He does what he needs to do - he's a reasonably survivable Smuggler that will hurt your opponent if he gets close to you - but he lacks the units for the rest of the list and on his own he will die to focused fire. If you just want to hang back and trade blasterfire, Han isn't the ideal choice. He's not terrible at it, but he's not worth 10 points to do that.

4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Unless you're activating Han first every round, you get to put him in a spot where he'll have line of sight to an enemy that's already moved that round, so it's not completely up to your opponent whether or not you get to trigger Rogue Smuggler each round. 

As I said, you should be getting 1.5 - 2 attacks from Han each round. Rogue Smuggler is going to be more frequent than Return Fire, though there are scenarios where it works the other way around. My point was that you shouldn't look at Han and expect him to fire 3 shots in a round, because that's just not going to happen against a decent player.

4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Frontline doesn't necessarily mean melee units, can just be really tanky ranged figures that can stand in the frontline to absorb shots and block LoS to your backline figures without blocking their LoS. Echoes are perfect for this, I basically use them as movable cover to allow my squishier figures to move into the fight without having to take a ton of sniper fire. 

I bet Han would do well in a list with Chewie, as crazy as that sounds. Han is a glass machine gun which makes him a natural target, but Debts Repayed means your opponent knows they will be punished for targeting him, both by Chewie and by Hans return fire ability. So they go after Chewie, which lets Han become an endgame wrecking ball. 

But for this specific list, I think a set of elite Echoes will do really well as meatshields for Han and the Rangers to hide behind and snipe from. 

Man, I want Echoes to be good so bad, because I love them, but they just aren't. They only need a little nudge to be playable, they aren't as bad as Rebel Troopers or anything, but they just don't cut it. Maybe if there were three of them in a deployment, or maybe if instead of -1 pierce they had +1 block, but their BG or RG in melee range attack is just too weak and they don't impact the game at all. Eight points is a lot to pay for two dudes whose only job is to eat blaster bolts. Rebels do need something along the idea of EBTs, but at the current power level of the game.

 

Also Han + Chewie is 21 points, which is half your list. Now I could maybe sort of see that working out with those two as your star players, but again I don't think Rebels currently have what they need to fill those other 19 points and make the list click. I think we're close. We have a lot of good smugglers already, we just need a little boost to bring it all together and make it competitive.

Edited by squirrelfox
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6 hours ago, erlucius90 said:

I still wonder how can Han cost fewer than Chewie when he has everything to potentially overrun Luke Jedi :/

Stat for stat, Chewie is "better" in that he has a good attack (with the potential to stun, which can't be underestimated) and a way to do up to 3 unmitigated damage every round. He is still rolling 2 dice even though he loses that clutch dodge, so even with element of surprise/heightened reflexes or forcing a reroll and then tough lucking it is still around, it's a little harder to pull off and you probably won't take Chewie out with an activation of EWeequays plus a few cards, but Han is more prey to it. Chewie has 3 traits (to be fair, Guardian doesn't do too much for him at the moment especially in Rebel) vs 2 for Han. So measuring them up I think it's all a fair trade for one extra point of deployment cost. Han probably has a higher threshold of potential, but Chewie will be more consistent imo.

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4 hours ago, squirrelfox said:

Han is okay. The mileage you get out of him is inversely proportional to the skill of your opponent. Against someone who is willing to take shots at him when he can fire back, and let the round end with him in LoS of one of their units, he's going to put out a lot of damage. Against someone who can play around him ... not so much. Realistically, expect to get 1.5 - 2 attacks per round out of him. At best. Additionally, he can't hang back if you want to utilize him well, but he's also pretty soft. White die + cunning and 12 health is good enough for him to survive the odd shot or two, but he's not going to survive any kind of focused assault. For someone who still costs 10 points and needs to be out and in the fray to be effective, that's not great. If he's your only unit out there contesting objectives and playing the mid field, he won't see the end of round two.

In my opinion, he's T2 at best right now. In a list like Ranger Package + Han, he's not going to work. The Rangers hang back and snipe, leaving Han to do what? Solo engage the enemy list? He'll die far too fast in that situation. There may be a solid Rebel Smuggler list on the horizon, and I could see him shining in that, but it hasn't arrived just yet. Honestly I think rebels just need a cheap, solid frontline. Preferably something with three units. Han will be better once there are more options to put in a list with him.

Could Elite Echo Base troops make a comeback? Still cost 8, but 8 health and canceling 1 pierce (along w/ some defense power token boosts) could make them great frontline objective contenders?

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2 minutes ago, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

Could Elite Echo Base troops make a comeback? Still cost 8, but 8 health and canceling 1 pierce (along w/ some defense power token boosts) could make them great frontline objective contenders?

Nevermind just read the last thing you wrote, missed it before.

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46 minutes ago, squirrelfox said:

Man, I want Echoes to be good so bad, because I love them, but they just aren't. They only need a little nudge to be playable, they aren't as bad as Rebel Troopers or anything, but they just don't cut it. Maybe if there were three of them in a deployment, or maybe if instead of -1 pierce they had +1 block, but their BG or RG in melee range attack is just too weak and they don't impact the game at all. Eight points is a lot to pay for two dudes whose only job is to eat blaster bolts. Rebels do need something along the idea of EBTs, but at the current power level of the game.

Playing the EBTs this week, I totally agree with you. If you just want dudes to eat blaster bolts, the regular Wookie Warriors have 11 Health.

My fix would to give +2 Accuracy to Front Line attacks. Would make them at least reasonably dangerous when they're finally close up, but doesn't guarantee damage on a Hidden target.

 

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1 hour ago, squirrelfox said:

Also Han + Chewie is 21 points, which is half your list. Now I could maybe sort of see that working out with those two as your star players, but again I don't think Rebels currently have what they need to fill those other 19 points and make the list click. I think we're close. We have a lot of good smugglers already, we just need a little boost to bring it all together and make it competitive.

I used a list that includes Han + Chewie with gideon c3 (obvisouly) and ended with Lando and eEcho


The eEcho were mainly for a frontline unit and control objectives while being resistent. Lando was for the flavor, but was a nice addition for the trait synergy and playing with him was interesting, he were a treat and a possible first target to use debts repaid to reactivate chewie. I think that he's a great figure with the right partners, two awesome surges with great abilities and traits.

I pretend to try a list trading eEcho for Hera andChopper with Balance of the force (debts repaid "for free") to raise the trait synergy (Smuggler + Leader), and with chopper in terminals c3 could be a support unit with the evades for Han (since he is shooting from at least 6 spaces consistently).

Giving focus to chewie was a good thing to keeping him from shooting at a nice range while Lando/echos made a treat to force the opponent to attack them and activate debts repaid.

Edited by Mantis731

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Han can be a beast, but you do have to position him well to get the most out of him. A good player can play around return fire, but not Rogue Smuggler as well. You can't leave him exposed or he will be susceptible to focused fire. I give him the edge over Chewie/jkLuke just based on his range. With the reroll and an accuracy surge, I'd feel pretty confident attacking with Han from 7-8 spaces away without being focused. That's pretty huge.

Edited by Fightwookies
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31 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

Han can be a beast, but you do have to position him well to get the most out of him. A good player can play around return fire, but not Rogue Smuggler as well. You can't leave him exposed or he will be susceptible to focused fire. I give him the edge over Chewie/jkLuke just based on his range. With the reroll and an accuracy surge, I'd feel pretty confident attacking with Han from 7-8 spaces away without being focused. That's pretty huge.

Exactly, from the 3 (Han, Chewie and JLuke) he is the safest option for attacking (and the cheapest) his attack and range are HIGHLY consistent, 6 spaces is pratically a minimum to him (without focus). And agree about a "good player can play around....", but if you can position to give 2 attacks per round he is already great and this means that is 10 points secured since the opponent is not attacking him. He with the great smuggler cards is in a great spot to play.

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It is absolutely true, that a good player can play around Han's 2nd and 3rd attack.

But in my experience, it takes a lot of effort to do so. Mindgames all the time. "If I go there, then Han can shoot, if I do that, Han will shoot ..." This is really exhausting. And gives a lot of board control and activation control to Han's player.

I've played against Han more than once, and have lost some of these games. The slightest mistake will cost you.

This is what makes Han really shine.

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Not only that, it's a mix of benefits, because
1) getting an unstoppable "Take Initiative" is massive;
2) Don't forget Han gets 1 block for each surge blocked, therefore Han defends pretty well (mostly with C-3PO);
3) Most important thing IMO, being able to shoot back at who attacked you is simply absurd, Han's damage value is pretty high therefore you can actually remove from the table one trooper/weequay who blast you. This is a strategic massive advantage, because you gain from just having Han on the field, while your enemy has to consider wether to sacrifice a miniature to then focus Han as much as possible (and therefore not focussing your other miniatures) or to engage him with a big figure such as Vader (someone who can defend well and has enough health to resist more than 1 blast from him)

Edited by erlucius90
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On 10/22/2017 at 8:29 AM, erlucius90 said:

2) Don't forget Han gets 1 block for each surge blocked, therefore Han defends pretty well (mostly with C-3PO);

Especially if you give 3P0 a gun, apparently... :D

Armed Escort command card

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