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I'm done being diplomatic.

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10 minutes ago, Bazakahuna said:

Saying 'I don't want to Strife telling me how I should RP' is like saying 'I don't want wounds telling me I can't stand up'.

 

The problem is that Strife measures something subjective. I can disagree how much a situation affects my character emotionally, depending on my picture on the character. There can be quite a difference between how I want to portray my character and how the mechanics force me to do it. On the other hand, Wounds are purely objective. I can't realistically say that getting slashed in the abdomen affects my character differently than the others - it is gonna hurt and it will be ugly. There is a very simple cause-and-effect in work there, nothing to worry about. 

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That's the problem, you are viewing it as subjective. It's not. That's like saying 'my picture of my character is that he's tough as nails and can take punishment for days'... when he has Earth and Water 1. Are you saying 'my vision of my character is he wouldn't be phased by that' when you have a Composure of 4? Because if you are, you're objectively wrong (if you think that give him 12, then chances are he will ignore it).

You see it this way as gaming since the 70s has taught us to think of physical wounds being objective and that HP/Constitution etc. is the sole determining factor in the depiction of their toughness. You want to be mentally tough and able to handle strife, you take the stats to do so and you'll be fine. Look at it that way and you'll see its the same as being physically tough when you take lots of earth and water, if you want that, make your character that way.

This mechanic is asking you to step outside the norm and look at it from a different perspective, 'old man shouts at cloud' is fine if you don't want to see innovation, but I think it's worth trying these things out as its the only way to move forward... it just has to be done right.

Edited by Bazakahuna

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6 minutes ago, Bazakahuna said:

That's the problem, you are viewing it as subjective. It's not. That's like saying 'my picture of my character is that he's tough as nails and can take punishment for days'... when he has Earth and Water 1. Are you saying 'my vision of my character is he wouldn't be phased by that' when you have a Composure of 4? Because if you are, you're objectively wrong (if you think that give him 12, then chances are he will ignore it).

1

How so? My character is a survivor of many battles, he has seen some stuff. But hey, he has a soft touch when it comes to bad poetry. He will not be moved by blood or an eviscerated corpse, but a subpar poet will trigger him hard. He has Composure 4 for poetry, but Composure 12 for violence. These are just two examples for his character, he has maybe a dozen "I'm cool with that" things and a dozen "Berserk button" things... and a few dozen others scattered in between the two - like any normal person. What's now? Should I take a dozen Anxieties and a dozen Passions just to make it work?

The stats is a wrong way to go in 5R5 because... well... characters don't really have stats. The Rings determine their personality quirks and aptitudes, so if my character is guile, quirky, and prefers to be shifty and quiet, then he will never have high Composure because he has high Air with a little Water and Void. Similarly, if I want to have my character emotionally vulnerable, then better not make him fierce and stubborn too. This is another problem with the mechanic to be honest, rather than something that can defend it.

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I totally understand your point. However, what if your character has old wounds that hurt on cold days? You can roleplaying them without needing stats. The physical can also be subjective from that perspective, but can also be objective at the same time. I believe the mental can be the same if properly implemented.

I actually do agree with your point though and have in fact suggested on other threads (maybe even this one) an added extra to the mechanic. You gain less Strife in less stressful situations, i.e. 1 Strife on a dice in a fight = 1 Strife, but maybe 1 Strife on a dice when painting recreationally doesn't = 1 Strife. As soon as you differentiate high stress situations from low stress, then it opens up the chance of people taking some sort of Advantage (as in a mechanical Advantage) that means they take less Strife doing X. A ninja could love climbing stuff and takes less Strife on rolls with Fitness etc. (I would always shy away from having combat as an option though).

I guess I am saying that I am happy with an objective element to mental injury and as I said before, if implemented properly will be very interesting.

 

Edited by Bazakahuna

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4 minutes ago, Doji Namika said:

All the system asks is that you show emotion and that's it.  

 

It does not ask. It demands. And that ain't good in my book. Especially with such a story-determining aspect like roleplaying a character. 

Edited by AtoMaki

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So, suppose a Bayushi is goading you in court, and trying to back you in to a corner so that you screw up and lose face and dishonour yourself (something fairly common in L5R.)

In old editions you'd make courtier or etiquette rolls to avoid being caught in the trap and you either fail or succeed in varying degrees.

In this edition, suppose you roll to avoid screwing up socially and every die you roll comes up with strife. Would both success and failure end with you screwing up in court, the very thing you were trying to avoid by rolling in the first place?

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13 minutes ago, SideshowLucifer said:

At this point AtoMaki, all I can say is we want 2 very different things from this game.

 

I only want it to be a good game, so that I can fantasy samurai in Rokugan while rolling and keeping dice. I wouldn't have a single shed of problem with "mental wounds" if they were implemented right. 

Like, changing the Strife result on the dice to the Threat result from SW and expanding on the various fixed Strife gains/losses would most likely fix a lot of problems. Maybe reworking Outburst to be more neutral (at least have both a positive and negative aspects). I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel here. I'm just not exactly sure whether it is hope for the mechanic or the train. 

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12 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Like, changing the Strife result on the dice to the Threat result from SW and expanding on the various fixed Strife gains/losses would most likely fix a lot of problems. Maybe reworking Outburst to be more neutral (at least have both a positive and negative aspects). I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel here. I'm just not exactly sure whether it is hope for the mechanic or the train. 

I kinda like this, it would give the GM more control over when a character would be effectively out of a scene, and add some interesting options.

Edited by Krofinn

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2 hours ago, Bazakahuna said:

Strife acts like a barometer to help you know the mental state of your character. I find it strange that people have issue with this, but have no problem with wounds/HP etc. that simply show the physical state of your character.

This gets explained pretty routinely.  The combat mechanic is not self-contained. The problem with Strife is that the bulk of the time, it accrues randomly, and managing it is just a strange game of accounting where you balance your expenses (accrued Strife) against your revenue (Water Stance and opportunities) and try to remain profitable.  Wounding and combat involves a wide range of mechanics from the combat itself, to the intervention of others to heal, etc.  Then the derived stat for Strife (Composure) is calculated weirdly, meaning the characters most likely to accumulate Strife are the best at handling it (Fire factors into Composure), and only one stat is responsible for maintaining it.  Which means some characters are near-spazzes simply because their CharGen build-path took them away from Water, Fire and Earth.   Compare Matsu Marvin, who basically by default has Water 3 and Composure 10, and Asahina Ashley who, if optimized for Strife management, has Water 3 but only Composure 6.  If she's not careful, she could have Water as low as 2 and Composure as low as 4.

Strife also doesn't scale well.  It will be almost irrelevant to higher level characters who will Roll so many dice, and won't need them all to succeed most of the time.  It's going to punish the heck out of Rank 1 and 2 characters who don't have high Strife Management traits... and nobody else.   I see a fair number of people here with Crane avatars saying "Strife hurts us all the time."  Notice you won't see anyone with a Lion or Crab mon saying that, lol.  That's because in this system, Cranes are spazzes (high Air, low Water, Earth and Fire), and Lions and Crabs (high Water, high Earth) are paragons of control.

Of course, the other problem is that Strife is basically meaningless, other than as a combat buff for violence-oriented characters with high Earth and/or Fire. Storygamers love it because they get to pretend it is roleplaying, but it's just annoying to everyone else because it limits their options at chargen, results in meaningless bookkeeping, and gives their characters bizarre and unrealistic tics based on ambiguous and arbitrary input.

 

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The problem is the game currently equates any break of On as an outburst, regardless of if that break is a soft chuckle, a smirk, slamming your fist onto the table, or challenging someone to a duel.

I've been thinking of this for a bit, and some minor changes I would like to see:

Different 'thresholds' of outburst (easy to implement)

Examples of ways for '2 opportunities to reduce strife' to play out (I initially was going to say 'actions to vent strife', and then remembered that this was already a thing)

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4 minutes ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

If you don't mind me asking, what happened during this beta? 

FFG proposed a very original and intuitive new system for the WH40KRPG line. It had Talent Trees, Action Points, lots-and-lots-and-lots of really awesome and interesting stuff. Effectively everything other than the dice resolution system was new or changed (and even dice resolution was slightly revised). It was also rather flawed, obviously, and it was up to the fans to evaluate and fix it. They did this so hard that FFG eventually danced back completely, scrapped the changes, and went back to the old and well-tested system rather than make the new one workable. 

It was pretty much like this 5R5 Beta, I even had a Beta Test Game topic there too. 40k Was all the jazz back then. Good ol' times. 

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The problems that I have and from what I've read regarding outbursts are that you have no control over when to have the outburst after accumulating enough strife, outbursts as a system are meant to be one size fits all regardless of the type situation and there's no hard and fast rule on how/what an outburst should be. I believe that instead of a certain threshold triggering it immediately it should be a tiered system with a variety of outcomes with the option of choosing when to have it up to the player. With the rule that once a character has strife above their composure they must have an outburst before the end of the session:

  • 1x your composure - This is a small non-verbal action such as gripping your sword or making a fist in anger. This should only last a few seconds at most and be visible only when looked for.
  • 2x your composure - At this level you make a short verbal confirmation of your outburst. Perhaps a tut or a sigh. This is noticeable but not heavily damaging.
  • 3x your composure - Now this is closer to what most people think of as an outburst. Now you'll outright argue in the scene or make an exclamation during combat.
  • 4x your composure - You've totally lose control of your emotions for a few minutes. In combat you may scream with anger and charge towards the enemy and in a social scene you may outright accuse an opponent of being an honourless dog or even challenge them to a duel.
  • 5x your composure - If you ever each this point without managing your strife you'll have a full emotional episode. This would involve your face completely dropping in front of those around you with your bare emotions and should have lasting implications.

Supporting this choice should be rules and mechanics that support certain types of characters being at high levels of composure to make it an actual choice as to when to trigger it instead of just doing at the earliest possiblity. Perhaps a berserker can only use their most potent abilities when above a certain band of composure or certain skills increase or decrease a rank depending on the band. E.G. Martial arts rolls get a 1k0 if you're at 3x while meditation and courtesy get -1k0.

I don't think this is a perfect way of managing this concept however I feel that any system that allows players the choice of when and how you have an outburst is stronger than the one we currently have.

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5 hours ago, Bazakahuna said:

That's the problem, you are viewing it as subjective. It's not. That's like saying 'my picture of my character is that he's tough as nails and can take punishment for days'... when he has Earth and Water 1. Are you saying 'my vision of my character is he wouldn't be phased by that' when you have a Composure of 4? Because if you are, you're objectively wrong (if you think that give him 12, then chances are he will ignore it).

You see it this way as gaming since the 70s has taught us to think of physical wounds being objective and that HP/Constitution etc. is the sole determining factor in the depiction of their toughness. You want to be mentally tough and able to handle strife, you take the stats to do so and you'll be fine. Look at it that way and you'll see its the same as being physically tough when you take lots of earth and water, if you want that, make your character that way.

This mechanic is asking you to step outside the norm and look at it from a different perspective, 'old man shouts at cloud' is fine if you don't want to see innovation, but I think it's worth trying these things out as its the only way to move forward... it just has to be done right.

Is it possible, that back in the 70s, players didn't need a mechanic to have their characters get mad or sad? 
and why wouldn't these amazingly brilliant, imaginative, fun designers not add a mechanic like strife to their games?
Maybe because they were already roleplaying? 

I wouldn't be too dismissive about the foundation of all the games before this one. They were already designed to allow players to escape to fantastic worlds, do amazingly heroic feats, and overcome challenges that are fun and exciting. 

I am starting to wonder whether or not the new L5R game is just so different and innovative that it is harder for some gamers to get comfortable with.
Maybe is targets a different style of roleplayer, which isn't a bad thing, but is the setting of L5R enough to break down the normal walls of the average person who roleplays?

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3 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

I am starting to wonder whether or not the new L5R game is just so different and innovative that it is harder for some gamers to get comfortable with.

 

They are definitely pushing the game into an actual direction rather than let it be and have "Rokugan Your Way!" as the universal answer. 

Personally, I'm rather uncomfortable with this choice.

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12 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

It has zero connection to Oriental Adventures. it originated as a CCG created by John Zinser, Dave Seay, Dave Williams, and John Wick and published by Alderac Entertainment Group in 1995. The card game was based on a tournament players control the storyline mechanic which gained it popularity on par with Magic, Which was unheard of at the time for any license other then Star Wars CCG. Due to its growing popularity it was made into a Roleplaying written by John Wick and published by Alderac Entertainment Group, under license from Five Rings Publishing Group, in 1997

its only connection to D&D was  In 2001, Wizards of the Coast released a new edition of Oriental Adventures as an expansion for the third edition of Dungeons & Dragons. It was decided to make this new version of Oriental Adventures a showcase for their recently acquired Legend of the Five Rings license which they later sold back to Alderac Entertainment Group which continued the D20 version as Rokugan RPG and released the 2nd edition. Leading to the duel-stat era of the game which ended with the release of 3rd ed in 2005.

The original Oriental Adventures book was published in 1985 and had the "priest" class being Shugenja. It is likely that some of Wick's "research" when he was making the game in 1995 was drawn from that book.

Edited by Ultimatecalibur

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26 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

I am starting to wonder whether or not the new L5R game is just so different and innovative that it is harder for some gamers to get comfortable with.
Maybe is targets a different style of roleplayer, which isn't a bad thing, but is the setting of L5R enough to break down the normal walls of the average person who roleplays?

I don't think so. Currently there are actual crunchy rules being mulled over and brought to light elsewhere but time and again it seems to swing around to the strife mechanic. At present there are those that feel that it is forcing them to role play a certain way because of a stat or roll of the dice which is (and I totally agree) irritating at best and a game killer at worst. The other side finds it to be perfecting manageable and a non-role play issue that adds a new dynamic to their L5R game. The trick will be seeing if we and FFG can tweak things (lets be real, it isn't going away) so that both sides can find a middle ground that leaves enough of a guide line in tact for the former and enough room for the latter.

At the moment we seem to get caught in the circle of 'but here' s my reason why you should agree with me' on both sides instead of more talk of how to change the system just enough to make both sides content if not happy. Happy is best but I'll take content ;)

Edited by Darksyde

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17 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The original Oriental Adventures book was published in 1985 and had the "priest" class being Shugenja. It is likely that some of Wick's "research" when he was making the game in 1985 was drawn from that book.

Nope. Shukenja.  "Public sensi"... and the role is that of wandering monastic. "A shukenja is a wandering priest or monk who has accepted a life of hardship and poverty. This self-sacrifice, combined with devout religious beliefs, places the shukenja outside of the celestial order." AD&D OA, p.22

Edited by AK_Aramis

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4 hours ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

This gets explained pretty routinely.  The combat mechanic is not self-contained. The problem with Strife is that the bulk of the time, it accrues randomly, and managing it is just a strange game of accounting where you balance your expenses (accrued Strife) against your revenue (Water Stance and opportunities) and try to remain profitable.  Wounding and combat involves a wide range of mechanics from the combat itself, to the intervention of others to heal, etc.  Then the derived stat for Strife (Composure) is calculated weirdly, meaning the characters most likely to accumulate Strife are the best at handling it (Fire factors into Composure), and only one stat is responsible for maintaining it.  Which means some characters are near-spazzes simply because their CharGen build-path took them away from Water, Fire and Earth.   Compare Matsu Marvin, who basically by default has Water 3 and Composure 10, and Asahina Ashley who, if optimized for Strife management, has Water 3 but only Composure 6.  If she's not careful, she could have Water as low as 2 and Composure as low as 4.

Strife also doesn't scale well.  It will be almost irrelevant to higher level characters who will Roll so many dice, and won't need them all to succeed most of the time.  It's going to punish the heck out of Rank 1 and 2 characters who don't have high Strife Management traits... and nobody else.   I see a fair number of people here with Crane avatars saying "Strife hurts us all the time."  Notice you won't see anyone with a Lion or Crab mon saying that, lol.  That's because in this system, Cranes are spazzes (high Air, low Water, Earth and Fire), and Lions and Crabs (high Water, high Earth) are paragons of control.

Of course, the other problem is that Strife is basically meaningless, other than as a combat buff for violence-oriented characters with high Earth and/or Fire. Storygamers love it because they get to pretend it is roleplaying, but it's just annoying to everyone else because it limits their options at chargen, results in meaningless bookkeeping, and gives their characters bizarre and unrealistic tics based on ambiguous and arbitrary input.

 

You won me over on the strife system. I like it (except the bookkeeping). but you make a good point, its bound to eventually not be a problem to anyone.

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10 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The original Oriental Adventures book was published in 1985 and had the "priest" class being Shugenja. It is likely that some of Wick's "research" when he was making the game in 1985 was drawn from that book.

Shugenja as wizards actually comes from the RPG Bushido, which was published in 1979.  Oriental Adventures was Gary Gygax trying to adapt Bushido to D&D, and he mentions his respect for Bushido in his book.  He just made the shukenja (slightly different spelling) the "cleric-equivalent" because a shugenja is just a practitioner of the ancient religion of Shugendō.   I'd imagine John Wick used Oriental Adventures as some of his inspiration in creating another fantasy "medieval Japanese" setting, but no more in that nearly every western fantasy setting is ultimately tied to Lord of the Rings.

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6 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Shugenja as wizards actually comes from the RPG Bushido, which was published in 1979.  Oriental Adventures was Gary Gygax trying to adapt Bushido to D&D, and he mentions his respect for Bushido in his book.  He just made the shukenja (slightly different spelling) the "cleric-equivalent" because a shugenja is just a practitioner of the ancient religion of Shugendō.   I'd imagine John Wick used Oriental Adventures as some of his inspiration in creating another fantasy "medieval Japanese" setting, but no more in that nearly every western fantasy setting is ultimately tied to Lord of the Rings.

Which points to there being a connection to the original OA that tenchi2a was trying to deny.

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5 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Which points to there being a connection to the original OA that tenchi2a was trying to deny.

John Wick is a big believer in reusing what works from other systems, but thinking of L5R Rokugan as being derivative of OA is jumping to unfounded conclusions. The 5 rings, the clans, the wall, the religion, what shugenja are, the Celestial Order, iaijutsu dueling, courtiers, etc are all things with obvious inspirations outside OA. Rokugan has very little in common with the OA setting other than flavour, and that flavour precedes both.

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