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tenchi2a

I'm done being diplomatic.

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3 hours ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

The thing with Iaijutsu is that it is embedded in law.

The Book of Air p.16 for 4th Edition 

 

 

3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

If you want Iai to not be the standard for formal duels, for resolving matters of honor, I get that. Multi-discipline duels are cool. That said, where does that leave the Kakita and their reputation as masters of single combat? It’s not exactly plausible that they can dominate duels if everyone gets to do whatever they do best, yet that is what they are supposed to be able to do (and I’m not even going into the mechanical side here). If they can’t, what does that mean for the Crane? And why would they devote as many resources as they do to a dueling school that can’t deliver consistent dueling champs and doesn’t deliver proper training for warfare either? If the nature of the formal duel is changed, then the Kakita and to a certain extent the entire Crane clan need to be changed accordingly as well.

Except what we see is that the Crane are practically the only clan that cares, with Dragon thrown in - as the spiteful counter-meta Niten duelists* - meaning the only other clan that actually cares for Iaijutsu doesn't even use the Crane's established method of Iaijutsu in the duels.  The other clans have few, if any techniques for it, and no schools centered around it.  Whether its "in the laws" or not, its rarely bothered with beyond the Crane lands once we step outside of fiction and look at actual mechanics.

I do believe this is mostly a flaw in the mechanics side - where Iaijutsu is constantly put in as its own system with its own mechanics, and surprise surprise CRANE have a technique for it, and no one else is going to care.

Its not likely to change because of the Iaijutsu cult embedded deep within the culture of players of L5R.  Even people who don't play Crane are certain Iaijutsu is the way its supposed to be yet no one else gets a dueling school or ranks in Iaijutsu...

You would think - if it was really intrinsic to the law - that every clan would have a school dedicated to the practice, since it would obviously be a very important advantage to have if you wanted to do anything legally...

What I propose is that we simply require a player forfeit honor to use any weapon other than a katana in a duel, unless their opponent also uses a weapon other than a katana.  This can respect the Iaijutsu "legality" while preventing every clan from needing a dueling school to enjoy the dueling system.  It also means the Crane can have some dueling advantage, but that it may be mitigated by using unorthodox styles - as the primary advantage of Iaijutsu is that you are drawing and cutting at once, where dueling with a Naginata would not require me to even draw.

*While the fiction recently depicted a Niten duelist actually drawing both weapons... this is highly unrealistic.  You typically use 2 hands to draw a weapon into a strike as you need to both clear the sword from the saya as early as possible to transition from a drawing motion to a cutting motion, and to lend enough power to the strike to cut.  It is called Sayabiki and is one of the more important skills in Iai.  Niten should start with both weapons drawn.

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The funny thing about the Iaijutsu duels is the fact that its hard to find any references to it outside of Japanese folktales and legends.

While the art of Iaijutsu was practiced in ancient Japan. It was seen as a defensive or counter-attack art uses when someone caught you with your sword sheathed.

What we see as Iaijutsu in L5R is a militarization and dramatization of the more demonstrative art of Iaijutsu.

In true this is the same as the wild west fast draw gunfight that has been changed to fit an Asian themed game designed for a western market. 

That said it has been a part of L5R from the beginning so dropping it now would not sit right with me.

Edited by tenchi2a

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7 hours ago, shosuko said:

What I propose is that we simply require a player forfeit honor to use any weapon other than a katana in a duel, unless their opponent also uses a weapon other than a katana.  This can respect the Iaijutsu "legality" while preventing every clan from needing a dueling school to enjoy the dueling system.  It also means the Crane can have some dueling advantage, but that it may be mitigated by using unorthodox styles - as the primary advantage of Iaijutsu is that you are drawing and cutting at once, where dueling with a Naginata would not require me to even draw.

The beta v1.1 actually tries to cover that with the introduction of the Warrior's Duel and changing a Iaijutsu Duel to a Warriors Duel by bringing a non-sword weapon is probably a Major breach of Makoto.

Bringing a Chokuto or Unicorn Scimitar to an Iaijutsu Duel would likely be at the most a trifling breach of Makoto.

7 hours ago, shosuko said:

*While the fiction recently depicted a Niten duelist actually drawing both weapons... this is highly unrealistic.  You typically use 2 hands to draw a weapon into a strike as you need to both clear the sword from the saya as early as possible to transition from a drawing motion to a cutting motion, and to lend enough power to the strike to cut.  It is called Sayabiki and is one of the more important skills in Iai.  Niten should start with both weapons drawn.

A Kakita vs Murimoto duel would likely be by rules a Warrior's Duel rather than a straight Iaijutsu duel.

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5 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

You do realize this proves my point right?

Its movie fighting for entertainment.

You know this is a fantasy setting inspired on exactly this kind of stuff and that Rokugan is not Japan, i dont need to tell you that.

Like yourself said, this is how Rokugan is, if they want to change, they have at least to do it public. "We are changing this stuff and here is why."

6 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:
14 hours ago, shosuko said:

 

A Kakita vs Murimoto duel would likely be by rules a Warrior's Duel rather than a straight Iaijutsu duel.

By law its a iaijutsu duel and they always used the iaijutsu skill for drawing their weapon. on this edition, they can also use iaijutsu to ready the second weapon.

14 hours ago, shosuko said:

 

You would think - if it was really intrinsic to the law - that every clan would have a school dedicated to the practice, since it would obviously be a very important advantage to have if you wanted to do anything legally...

Every school has its own Iaijutsu (They learned from kakitas, be it stealing or not) while not being the focus, Every clan groom its own duelists to be Yojimbos and deal with courts. The danger from the Kakita is not only having the heritage of creating Iaijutsu(and being good on it) but also the fact that every single one of their Kakita Bushi are actually duelists.

Like you said yourself, the others school focus on having the majority of their bushis being good where the real fight happens, not on the court.

14 hours ago, shosuko said:

*While the fiction recently depicted a Niten duelist actually drawing both weapons... this is highly unrealistic.  You typically use 2 hands to draw a weapon into a strike as you need to both clear the sword from the saya as early as possible to transition from a drawing motion to a cutting motion, and to lend enough power to the strike to cut.  It is called Sayabiki and is one of the more important skills in Iai.  Niten should start with both weapons drawn.

I Agree with you. I Favor the old artworks of the Kakita X Mirumoto. Kakita ready to draw, Mirumoto in a weird stance with his 2 weapons. both standing close to each other, not defending themselves, not doing any footwork, not attacking. Thats the WHOLE POINT OF IAIJUTSU DUEL, not the actual iaijutsu (Funny is it not?) and then suddenly, both strike.

Curiously, in this edition, the writers disagree with you. Read the Iaijutsu Technique and tell if that is not better for Mirumoti than it is for Kakita? You will use your weapon in a one handed stance. Okay, The Mirumoto only has 2 hands, so he will have to do that. You can only read one weapon per turn (unless you are in water stance.) well, that sounds like trouble for Mirumoto. But wait, you can draw one weapon and attack with iaijutsu on the other. If you dont want to do that, you can attack with iaijutsu (with both weapons on the sheat) and then draw a second weapon with opportunity. In the case you feel this idea of drawing both weapons stupid, ask the writers to change that.

4th edition actualy agrees with you. The Mirumoto WILL use iaijutsu Skill on a Iaijutsu duel, just like anybody would in the mechanics, but they actually earn a bonus equal to their Kenjutsu at some point of their school progression. (Perhaps to simulate that the weapons are actually draw? dont know.)

Now why they use Iaijutsu then? Well if a player asked me that, i would tell then that the stance of iaijutsu duels, restraining yourself and putting yourself in your enemy mercy the way that happens in a duel is alien to kenjutsu. That together with the stance that the Mirumoto does on duel, The Iaijutsu skill is the proper way to represent the attack.

In any case, why can the Mirumoto do that and others cant? Well Tradition, Niten x Iaijutsu is one of those discussions that people on Rokugan love. Same way i would give bigger penalty to a Crane going to a duel in heavy armor than to a Crab. The Crab is kind of expected, despite still being a breach.

In any case. Iaijutsu duel is the law of 4th Edition. Can be argued that is the Law of Rokugan in any case (4th edition is setting agnostic.) But it can be changed on this Edition. Like i said.I just want them to change it in a clear way.

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3 hours ago, Mobiusllls said:

You know this is a fantasy setting inspired on exactly this kind of stuff and that Rokugan is not Japan, i dont need to tell you that.

Like yourself said, this is how Rokugan is, if they want to change, they have at least to do it public. "We are changing this stuff and here is why."

The point I was getting at was. Since there is no historical instance for them to go on they can make Iaijutsu Duels work how ever they want.

That said, I agree that if they are going to change it form what AEG created they need to come out and tell the Public.

 

 

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On 10/27/2017 at 10:51 PM, shosuko said:

*While the fiction recently depicted a Niten duelist actually drawing both weapons... this is highly unrealistic.  You typically use 2 hands to draw a weapon into a strike as you need to both clear the sword from the saya as early as possible to transition from a drawing motion to a cutting motion, and to lend enough power to the strike to cut.  It is called Sayabiki and is one of the more important skills in Iai.  Niten should start with both weapons drawn.

Done and done

The Book of Air p. 25-26 in 4th Edition

Quote

At the beginning of an iaijutsu duel, the opponents face each other at a short distance apart—usually around ten feet apart, so that they can close the gap when they strike. Sometimes the distance will be closer or farther based on circumstances, but roughly ten feet is typical. In the traditional iaijutsu method, as pioneered by Kakita and copied down the centuries by most other clans and families, the sword is kept sheathed, and the duelist will stand with his right hand resting above the hilt, ready to draw. A few dueling traditions diverge from this customary stance, most notably the followers of Mirumoto’s techniques. The students of Niten usually start their duels with both swords already drawn and held down at their sides, although some employ the Kakita single-sword draw and a few of them even practice a two-sword draw. 

An iaijutsu strike is truly an example of the philosophy of Air in action. It begins with stillness, as the iaijutsu artist quiets his body and mind. The duelist extends his senses outward while measuring each breath and controlling every movement of his muscles, offering his opponent not the slightest sign that he is about to attack. At the same time, the duelist focuses his senses upon his opponent, seeking any sign of the enemy’s intentions. Silence and stillness reign, much as the wind quiets and dies just before a storm sweeps over the land. 

Then, usually acting on instinct honed by years of training, the duelist suddenly knows it is time to strike. In the traditional Kakita forms, his right hand (formerly resting above the hilt of the sword) turns suddenly to grasp it. At the same time he pulls back on his saya with his left hand, making the drawing motion even faster. The katana springs free and arcs upward and outward, a single smooth motion that is, to the duelist, as natural as breathing. 

A Mirumoto traditionalist does not draw, for his swords are already free of their saya. Instead he suddenly flows forward, both blades rising with the speed of the wind to simultaneously strike and block. Typically he will strike with the katana in his right hand while blocking with the wakizashi in his left, although the most proficient Mirumoto swordmasters may use each blade in either role.

Regardless of form, if the duelist has judged the moment correctly, has achieved the true oneness of body, mind, and soul that is the heart of the dueling strike, his blade will cut down his opponent first. If not, he will have to try to perfect the art in his next life.

Once a duel is concluded—which may take anywhere from a few seconds to several hours, depending on the combatants—it is also up to the judge to proclaim the winner. It is usually obvious who won, but in situations where both duelists struck at almost the same instant, or where both perished from a kharmic strike, the situation may be more complex. In particular, in situations where both duelists are killed it is up to the judge to determine whether one died before the other. 

 

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On ‎28‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:44 PM, Mobiusllls said:

Same way i would give bigger penalty to a Crane going to a duel in heavy armor than to a Crab. The Crab is kind of expected, despite still being a breach.

They do (P187). Crab suffer half the honour loss from a breach of Courtesy (forgetting the specifics of a societal ritual is name-checked as this tenet) than any other clan, because 'it's expected of them'.

On ‎28‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:25 PM, Ultimatecalibur said:

The beta v1.1 actually tries to cover that with the introduction of the Warrior's Duel and changing a Iaijutsu Duel to a Warriors Duel by bringing a non-sword weapon is probably a Major breach of Makoto.

Bringing a Chokuto or Unicorn Scimitar to an Iaijutsu Duel would likely be at the most a trifling breach of Makoto.

If you've previously agreed specifically to an Iaijutsu duel, then yes. If you've just said 'a duel' and the Crane assumed you meant an Iaijutsu duel then that's probably courtesy; you haven't lied, you just aren't behaving correctly in society because you don't care....

I think that mandating (mechanically speaking) ceremonial items and/or non-wargear items is not unreasonable when setting the terms of a duel.

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Quite honestly, I wish they would drop honour loss reduction and never think of it again so long as new editions of L5R keep coming out.

The Crab are expected to breach Courtesy. This is one among many reasons they have lower honour than other clans; those that hold to Bushido with a less pragmatic perspective.

Let. That. Loss. Happen. Samurai are as honourable as they behave, no more or less.

No one likes seeing others fail to follow Bushido, but they expect certain breaches from certain clans. Mitigate glory losses & gains for specific behaviour from clans of whom it's expected.

Edited by BitRunr

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I would ream amy samauri who showed up in armor to a formal dual. That honor loss and glory loss would become rather significant when my courtiers got done and the duel would be rescheduled to an appropriate amount of time for my opponent to reflect on his shame while adhering to the rules.

Edited by SideshowLucifer

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26 minutes ago, SideshowLucifer said:

I would ream amy samauri who showed up in armor to a formal dual. That honor loss and glory loss would become rather significant when my courtiers got done and the duel would be rescheduled to an appropriate amount of time for my opponent to reflect on his shame while adhering to the rules.

You could try, particularly when the opponent is a Crane or Scorpion. Certainly if only to first blood. I assume the opponent will have courtiers shining a different light on the situation though. “The rules” seem a little different in this edition, and even in previous editions anything goes as long as you have the necessary status or are convincing enough.

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7 hours ago, SideshowLucifer said:

I would ream amy samauri who showed up in armor to a formal dual. That honor loss and glory loss would become rather significant when my courtiers got done and the duel would be rescheduled to an appropriate amount of time for my opponent to reflect on his shame while adhering to the rules.

In general there is not a rule that you cant duel in armor, and there is a historic of duels in the past that went with armored duelist, so the samurai can make a good case. It just go against tradition and maybe common sense. But a courtier can certainly try and do that, the other duelist would probably be against, afraid of looking like he is backing down for a challenge. Duels do get rescheduled due to events all the time, sometimes it may look like one of the duelists is running from it. A good point to remember while we discuss Iaijutsu Duels, is that usually they take some time since the challenge to actually happen.

I Would suppose that even on the classic winter court case, where the lords are already there and can give permission to a duel right away, they would at least give one or two days for preparations or other things like that.

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So in the next day or two I will find out if I should stick around or not.

Character Creation was the main issues that most of my players had with this version of the game.

So if it going to stay the same or they don't have options for more free-form creation I'll be taking my leave.

Been fun arguing with you all LOL.

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there have been a lot of duels in anime and live action where they draw one handed and strike .

now as for  two weapons in a duel why not I can see a dragon drawing his katana then doing a spinning blades as part of his strike that's very dragon

you could  also do it with out the opportunities  using the action from water stance then Iaijutsu tech followed  spinning blades.

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