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I'm done being diplomatic.

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Just now, WHW said:

Unless you were hitting the Oni with Sacred items from the Shrine (or with the Shrine itself), it doesn't actually do anything to the beasts Resistance. Hallowed Ground interacts with certain TNs beast might try to tackle, but it does not inherently debuff them. Might want to email the Beta team with a Terrain quality that does so, tho. 

Yeah didnt want to bring this up, since its not the point of the opportunity discussion.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

To be honest, the alternative to the shrine was a TPK. 

I disagree. There are katas that increase the severity of a critical strike and that reduce resistance for an entire turn, assistance and other opportunities could be used also.

I Believe that is why its a good think a bushi be balanced on rings and get different katas, having mechanical options to deal with anything without gm discretion is the best thing you can do. on my opinion.

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9 minutes ago, Mobiusllls said:

I disagree. There are katas that increase the severity of a critical strike and that reduce resistance for an entire turn, assistance and other opportunities could be used also.

 

Yeah, these things weren't saving us at all. Oni are no joke. 

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22 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

To be honest, the alternative to the shrine was a TPK. 

In a traditional RPG, that's just bad GMing if they tossed an enemy at you you couldn't defeat, but defeating it was necessary to the story and/or impossible to retreat from.  It's like the lost temple in D&D5E's Out of the Abyss that throws low level characters in a campaign with very few magic items into an area with weapon-immune enemies and wild magic surges.  It's like "Hope you find that magic sword at the bottom of the temple after you've already woken up all five of the damage-immune undead." The time my friends played through it, the only thing that saved the party was the GM fudging the spectres' immunities and an accidentally summoned unicorn. That's just bad module-writing, lol.

I mean, if that's what the GM had in mind was "Let the players invent a way to beat this" then it works for your group, and to be fair, I'm not crapping on how you guys have fun because I don't care, only critiquing the idea that it's the way the rules were intended.  But for a lot of groups that isn't going to fly. As a GM, I don't want to write a campaign where I can't predict challenge levels for a scene because the players will just blow all of them up with Opportunities. It's not because I'm grumpy. It's because I'm putting a lot of work into running the game, and you the player only shows up once a week and Toon Town Rokugan is a waste of my time, and we can play a board game instead.

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31 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

As a GM, I don't want to write a campaign where I can't predict challenge levels for a scene because the players will just blow all of them up with Opportunities. It's not because I'm grumpy. It's because I'm putting a lot of work into running the game, and you the player only shows up once a week and Toon Town Rokugan is a waste of my time, and we can play a board game instead.

Just out of idle curiosity, how would you react if I came to your table as a player having demonstratedly put more work into preparation for the game than you as Game Master? Purely theoretical question of course.

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That's actually not possible assuming I've done my job as the GM. No matter how much you've written about your character, no matter how much artwork, you will affect nothing else in the game other than your own character. The NPCs, the story arc, the setting, etc. You play one character, I play all of the rest of them.   You tell your story, I tell all of the rest of them.  If you're a player who can offer useful setting knowledge to the other players because you're familiar with the setting, that's great.  But in the end, you're not doing anything other than reacting to the work I've done.  And if that's not the case, then that just means I did a bad job as the GM. But assuming the GM has done their work, ad there's a lot of it, and it's all necessary, then you're still just a player.   Which, unsurprisingly, is why it's so hard to find a GM sometimes that some FLGS will actually offer prizes or compensation for people who will GM in-store game nights. Creating a character is easy. Even just running a module right out of the book is typically more work.

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Just now, TheVeteranSergeant said:

No matter how much you've written about your character, no matter how much artwork, you will affect nothing else in the game other than your own character.

 

The whole intention behind Narrative Opportunities is to change this. 

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5 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

That's actually not possible assuming I've done my job as the GM. No matter how much you've written about your character, no matter how much artwork, you will affect nothing else in the game other than your own character. The NPCs, the story arc, the setting, etc. You play one character, I play all of the rest of them.   You tell your story, I tell all of the rest of them.  If you're a player who can offer useful setting knowledge to the other players because you're familiar with the setting, that's great.  But in the end, you're not doing anything other than reacting to the work I've done.  And if that's not the case, then that just means I did a bad job as the GM. But assuming the GM has done their work, ad there's a lot of it, and it's all necessary, then you're still just a player.   Which, unsurprisingly, is why it's so hard to find a GM sometimes that some FLGS will actually offer prizes or compensation for people who will GM in-store game nights. Creating a character is easy. Even just running a module right out of the book is typically more work.

That does not work like you think it does. Every player interacts with the npcs and as such influences them and their behavior. You might are playing the rest but each PC has abig influence on the world and their behavior through their interactions with the npcs and the enviorment. And no players don´t only react they also go and do stuff and then suddenly the world ahs to react in accordance to their actions, so again they infleunce and change the setting and the world with their actions. Gms have a great deal of inluence but are not the only ones hwo do stuff with the world and the people in it.
Also if I decide to blow upt he world I surely effected all of it.

Edited by Teveshszat

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7 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

That's actually not possible assuming I've done my job as the GM. No matter how much you've written about your character, no matter how much artwork, you will affect nothing else in the game other than your own character. The NPCs, the story arc, the setting, etc. You play one character, I play all of the rest of them.   You tell your story, I tell all of the rest of them.  If you're a player who can offer useful setting knowledge to the other players because you're familiar with the setting, that's great.  But in the end, you're not doing anything other than reacting to the work I've done.  And if that's not the case, then that just means I did a bad job as the GM. But assuming the GM has done their work, ad there's a lot of it, and it's all necessary, then you're still just a player.   Which, unsurprisingly, is why it's so hard to find a GM sometimes that some FLGS will actually offer prizes or compensation for people who will GM in-store game nights. Creating a character is easy. Even just running a module right out of the book is typically more work.

Now you are moving the goal posts. You original claim was about the amount of work you put in, I am assuming - and I might be wrong about this - in preparation, as you stressed the player only coming to the session once per week so much, which to me implied you saw this difference in "work" to be in the between session periods (i.e., while you and the players are not sitting down at the table together).

So, if I understand your new position correctly, it's actually not the amount of work (and/or preparation time) put in that matters but solely the privileges and responsibilities ascribed to the roles irregardless of the involved workload?

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15 minutes ago, blut_und_glas said:

Now you are moving the goal posts.

 

You don't understand what that term means, clearly. You were the one trying to position the goalposts to make you correct.  Because everyone understands that the total value of the work you put in as a player is capped. You can do more work, but it's like rolling 8k1.  That player showing up with no preparation is rolling 2k1.

That does not work like you think it does. Every player interacts with the npcs and as such influences them and their behavior. You might are playing the rest but each PC has abig influence on the world and their behavior through their interactions with the npcs and the enviorment.

Which has nothing to do with preparation, which is the topic at hand.  For that NPC to exist, the GM had to prepare him, the scene and the setting. You just showed up and talked.

The whole intention behind Narrative Opportunities is to change this. 

Which is why I said "traditional RPGs" in the post he was replying to and challenging notions from.  Does nobody read before they reply? lol

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10 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Which is why I said "traditional RPGs" in the post he was replying to and challenging notions from.  Does nobody read before they reply? lol

 

My point is that you can't really measure 5R5 to "traditional RPGs" because it is quite obviously moving away from those. Shed your mortal limits TheVeteranSergeant, and free your mind :D!

Edited by AtoMaki

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6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm still confused about this. My character quipped at an Oni. He lost 3 Glory because of it... but why? Will the Oni file a complaint to Tengoku for my character being rude towards him? Or what? I'm asking!

Because someone who matters saw you do so... and was neither impressed with your quip nor your self control. Or it was outside of combat... 

Note that a good zinger on the battlefield only is worth earning glory (but possibly costing honor if untrue). 

Such as, "Such big horns, is someone compensating for something else being rotted off?" would be glory-gaining (maybe 1 or 2) if, and only if, someone lives to tell the tale. The similar sentiment but coarser delivery, "Big horns? Must have Small D___! Tough s___, horndog!" is likely to cost glory for being decidedly impolite - both because it's an accusation rather than an implication, and because it's crude. 

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21 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Which has nothing to do with preparation, which is the topic at hand.  For that NPC to exist, the GM had to prepare him, the scene and the setting. You just showed up and talked.

Not always. Or even usually, for me. Improv forever!!!!!

EDIT: Setting is prepped, of course. Sometimes the NPC is, sometimes not. Scene usually isn't. 

Edited by sidescroller
Removed pulp

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1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

As an aside, how am I supposed to read this? What does it stand for?

It is like an acronym for Legend of the Five Rings 5th Edition - like, 5 Rings 5th aka 5R5. I dunno where I saw it first, but I like it :P .

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I can absolutely measure this wonky, sub-par storygame to a traditional RPG so that FFG knows it's a massive  abomination of half-storygame, half-RPG that sucks at being both (it's not even a good  Accounting Simulator though it's trying to be that too), and there are still lots of us out here who'd like to see 4th Edition get a reprint.  I came at this open-minded because L5R4E needed a pretty good once-over and some re-balancing so that we can all stop playing with different sets of house rules. But they tossed the whole system and replaced it with an entirely different game set in superficially the same setting.  Like I've said before, if FFG wants to make a storygame out of L5R, release it as a parallel system, and then at least reprint the books so my new players can get a physical copy for less than $100. 

Otherwise, if this is the only L5R game we're going to see in hard copy, let's push it into a direction that is playable for traditional gamers, and let the storygamers adapt it for FATE since rules don't really matter for storygames anyway.  Why bother writing rules traditional gamers will hate and rules that storygamers only need in passing? You decided you wanted to play Jackie Chan's Rokugan Madness, and you've tossed half the rules and intentionally misinterpreted the others the way you wanted them to. What's the point of a 220 page rulebook to you? You needed like 30 of them since like 50% of the book is tables and charts repeating the same basic concepts over and over and you aren't using them anyway.  It took 4 pages of tables to present the same information 4th Edition did with a 3/4 page table. This is literally the most complex game about doing whatever you want that I've ever seen, lol. Rules written for no other purpose than to justify custom dice mechanics, or simply to justify other rules ("Your samurai has a duty, but he also has his inner desires. Once every three weeks when a wheel turns, one of these will matter, sorta").

I've got a better acronym for it right now. Fail5R.  It's succinct, accurately descriptive, and retains the initialism structure players will immediately recognize, plus some basic alliteration by keeping the L sound. 5R5 just gets everything twisted up.

 

Not always. Or even usually, for me. Improv forever!!!!!

Were that i'twere so simple. I've gotta figure out whose week it is for ninjo and giri, and how to artificially insert that into the storyline alongside everything else I have to improvise this week.  And frankly, I have a hard time believing you improvise everything and keep a coherent narrative going.  Unless you're just the GM for AtoMaki's Jackie Chan game and he's drawing the scenery for you.  I mean, maybe you have 10 years of GMing L5R under your belt and you can seamlessly write fantasy Japanese and Wushu stories train of thought. If so, I think we can paint you in the minority.

 

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12 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

I mean, maybe you have 10 years of GMing L5R under your belt and you can seamlessly write fantasy Japanese and Wushu stories train of thought. If so, I think we can paint you in the minority.

14

This seems to be the core problem with the game in general: it assumes that this minority is the majority, maybe because the developers themselves belong to this minority. 90% of the mechanics are thus lined up for this particular group with the added "hip factor" of rolling with the nowadays very fashionable "storytelling RPG" way of thinking/ruling. 

Gauging from the first survey e-mail, this won't change either. 

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47 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

*snip*

there are still lots of us out here who'd like to see 4th Edition get a reprint. 

*Snip*

L5R4E needed a pretty good once-over and some re-balancing so that we can all stop playing with different sets of house rules.

*Snip*

if FFG wants to make a storygame out of L5R, release it as a parallel system, and then at least reprint the books so my new players can get a physical copy for less than $100. 

 

I doubt very much that FFG will reprint the 4e books (though setting them up for a print on demand option would be nice). I seriously doubt we'll see a 4.5 edition either.

Edited by JorArns

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50 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Otherwise, if this is the only L5R game we're going to see in hard copy, let's push it into a direction that is playable for traditional gamers, and let the storygamers adapt it for FATE since rules don't really matter for storygames anyway.

Remember that time you told me not to worry about labels, pretty much told me I was a storygamer and thay there's nothing wrong with that? And here you are getting salty about storygamers, insinuating that storygames are trash and that FATE is the game people who like games that encourage story should play.

For the record, I'm not really a fan of FATE, and I actually adore a good ruleset. Maybe you should just go play AD&D Oriental Adventures, since that seems more tour speed.

55 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Would that i'twere so simple. Heathen. And talk about storygames, you're making me want to break out Fiasco.

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Not interested in your childish baiting. I wasn't salty about storygames at all. I'm just saying, if they're going to make a new system, the storygamers don't need all these complicated rules.

However, the point you're missing is I don't care about you, and I have no incentive to care about you and the kind of game you want to play. Just as clearly you don't care about the things that interest me and other traditional roleplayers. So don't take it personally. Most assuredly I'm not taking any of your posts personally.  My interests are in one of two things.  A version of 5th Edition that isn't awful like this one is, or a reprint of 4th Edition.  If we both get what we want, then it will be a happy ending for everyone. If only I get what I want, oh well. My recently-divorced 7th grade math teacher had a wonderful saying that's suddenly popped in my head.  I'm sure you'll feel the same if you get your storygame.

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10 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

or a reprint of 4th Edition

There's no point in a reprint of 4th edition. There's no audience for it anymore. The majority of the people who were interested in buying the physical books already bought them. Those of us who missed out on a few of them, and I include myself because I did not manage to buy a physical copy of every book, cannot expect FFG to cater to us. We're not a large enough audience.

I linked you to the drivethrurpg page for L5R in the other thread. If you want books you don't already have, that's your option. Maybe if you send FFG an email they'll consider adding POD. I don't know that it's likely, but it's likelier than a traditional offset print run.

Edited by deraforia

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1 hour ago, JorArns said:

I doubt very much that FFG will reprint the 4e books (though setting them up for a print on demand option would be nice). I seriously doubt we'll see a 4.5 edition either.

 

28 minutes ago, deraforia said:

There's no point in a reprint of 4th edition. There's no audience for it anymore. The majority of the people who were interested in buying the physical books already bought them. Those of us who missed out on a few of them, and I include myself because I did not manage to buy a physical copy of every book, cannot expect FFG to cater to us. We're not a large enough audience.

I linked you to the drivethrurpg page for L5R in the other thread. If you want books you don't already have, that's your option. Maybe if you send FFG an email they'll consider adding POD. I don't know that it's likely, but it's likelier than a traditional offset print run.

Anything is possible, esp if the sales do not pan out for this new edition of L5R. "4.5" might turn into a unofficial doc with all of the folks coming together that didn't embrace FFG's L5R, for whatever reasons. 

From someone that purchased PODs from drivethrurpg, the book quality is pretty nice; I ordered Strongholds of the Empire and Imperial Archives from them. A re-print could be easy for 4E Core; again, if only the sales do not go in favor of the new edition.

 

FFG's L5R 

I will say, this is probably the most crunchy and complex Narrative System that I have never read from my experience; World of Darkness* (interested in seeing how Chronicles of Darkness does), FATE (homebrew) and And The Beat Goes On.   

*Though I will admit, playing Vampire was pretty intimidating role playing wise, but I got the hang of it for the most part after like 5 or 6 seasons. lol 

Edited by BlindSamurai13

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2 minutes ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

 

Anything is possible, esp if the sales do not pan out for this new edition of L5R. "4.5" might turn into a unofficial doc with all of the folks coming together that didn't embrace FFG's L5R, for whatever reasons. 

From someone that purchased PODs from drivethrurpg, the book quality is pretty nice; I ordered Strongholds of the Empire and Imperial Archives from them. A re-print could be easy for 4E Core; again, if only the sales do not go in favor of the new edition.

 

FFG's L5R 

I will say, this is probably the most crunchy and complex Narrative System that I have never read from my experience; World of Darkness* (interested in seeing how Chronicles of Darkness does), FATE (homebrew) and And The Beat Goes On.   

*Though I will admit, playing Vampire was pretty intimidating role playing wise, but I got the hang of it for the most part after like 5 or 6 seasons. lol 

Not to be the squasher of hopes and dreams, but I don’t see FFG budging on 4E unless this new editions bombs out so completely they scrap it altogether. And given that it’s a tabletop RPG, even one with an excellent reputation and a fairly strong following, I don’t think the bar for “acceptably successful” will be super high.

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