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tenchi2a

I'm done being diplomatic.

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This whole beta has become to much. I have seen nothing but arguments over they rule that amount to I'm right and your wrong. In truth I think that theses rule are junk. Forget a beta this needs to go back to an alpha.

After a weekend of trying to run this for two different groups, one not even getting through Character Creation before go back to 4th. I decided this game was never going to work for my players.

As I see it the forum had divided into three camps.

1. The FFG fanboys/girls who seem to think FFG writers can do know wrong.

2. The Old-school L5R players who hate it because its not 4th revised.

3. The few neutrals who are looking to bring both sides together under this new game.

I tried to be in group 3 but this forum proved that this will never work. Everyone is more into proving that everyone else's way is wrong then finding a middle ground.

To be blunt I don't think these rules will ever work as created. My reason for this is FFG needs to stop trying to please everyone and pick a system. This hybrid junk is not going to work. Either make a 4th revised system or a narrative dices system. stop trying to please everyone. I will not play a narrative dices system but at least I could respect them for sticking to their guns. This half-a"" system is just garbage. And from the looks of the playtest schedule and their commits it looks like this will never get resolved. You can't focus on small parts of the rules when so many of these areas are interlinked. How can you test Character Creation one week then Skills/Advantages/Disadvantages the next. Skills/Advantages/Disadvantages are part of Character Creation. Artificial separations like this led to rules not functioning as a whole.

Other issues are the people trying to make this into a Ancient Japaneses  RPG. If you want that go play Sengoku RPG it does it better. This is not Japan its Rokugan. Yes it Takes heavily from Ancient Japan but it also take from Korea and China. And in the end is its own animal

FFG players don't have to be told how to roleplay. It has never been the job of the rules to create adventure. The rule are there to add structure and resolution to tasked. They are not there to tell you when your Character gets angry, sad, what ever.

The only thing I can see to make this game work is to split it in two.

One half being the 4th revised/5th ed R&K game, and the other being a campaign setting for Genesys. Other then that I don't think it will work.

or just picking one or the other.

 

Edited by tenchi2a

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Good riddance?

I don't consider myself in any of the three camps...

  • The FFG fanboys/girls who seem to think FFG writers can do know wrong.
  • The Old-school L5R players who hate it because its not 4th revised.
  • The few neutrals who are looking to bring both sides together under this new game.

I vehemently object to one element that several FFG games use: fixed numbers of range bands moved for a given portion of a turn, while the range bands are not the same distance. I genuinely think Jay's off his rocker for thinking it a good idea, and pushing it for WFRP3 and FFG Star wars. 

And I've not hesitated to tell FFG that in every playtest. (And yet, I got a personal email from a staffer a week before the playtest book was up asking me to participate).

Nor am I upset that they didn't use d10 R&K. I wouldn't have minded it, but I'm not dead set on it.

Nor am I upset that it's not using Genesys. (Genesys dice are essentially the same as FFG star wars.)

it's its own thing. And, aside from the range bands, so far, I'm liking it for what it is...

But I see no need to keep the "4th ed forever" fanboys around, nor are the rabid "FFG can do no wrong" folks much use in a playtest - noise to be filtered out, really.

As for splitting out advantages and disads from the main of character gen? there are a lot of them already, and seeing the rest of CGenfixed first is a good tactical decision - it's not a "They're separate"  but a, "We need to set the context firmly first" type decision.

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37 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Good riddance?

Never said I was leaving just that I was not going to sugarcoat my opinions anymore. I just don't think this beta is going to accomplish anything productive with the level of division I have seen.

Quote

I don't consider myself in any of the three camps...

  • The FFG fanboys/girls who seem to think FFG writers can do know wrong.
  • The Old-school L5R players who hate it because its not 4th revised.
  • The few neutrals who are looking to bring both sides together under this new game.

 

Sorry should have said most.

Edited by tenchi2a

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31 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Never said I was leaving just that I was not going to sugarcoat my opinions anymore. I just don't think this beta is going to accomplish anything productive with the level of division I have seen.

Sorry should have said most.

Why ever did you think you should sugar coat your opinions?  You aren't a participant in a beta to bring 2 sides together, you're in a beta to try things out.  Who cares if someone doesn't like that they changed the dice - they changed the dice, and that's done.  They will eventually get over it, or come around and that is up to them.  Its not your job to do that.

I was quite wary of the dice.  I liked how they kept the R&K system even while switching to narrative dice, and seeing what they've done here while hearing about what they did with SW I think SW got the !@#$ end of the stick haha.  This system is WAY better than the trash they got lol.  Its really grown on me even as I work through the kinks in the system.

I don't care that some people cringe at Zanbato.  If they can't get over the fact that Japanese cartoons used ancient Japanese weapons in their highly popular anime culture that's their opinion.  As with the dice, FFG did it.  They have no reason not to do it.  They should ensure we have No-Dachi as well.  Nothing wrong with more options.

People seem to be offended that a RPG system call out their character using a stress system.  I find this a laughable complaint.  RPGs give you rules to dictate your abilities in all realms of life.  If you run out of HP you are too injured to fight, I don't see anyone complaining about this.  If you run out of Composure, you can't keep calm mentally.  The book specifically goes into detail of the pros and cons of blowing your composure, and goes over how to customize designing your composure so that it is tailored to you.  It also gives several ways you can ease your composure if you want a character who is a mountain of calm and composure.  This is one of the best features of the new system, and as much as *some* people don't like it, I feel like most people will and FFG won't take it out for the few who disagree.

There are two clearly defined eras that Rokugan draws from for 95% of its content.  These are the Sengoku and Tokugawa peace era.  For L5R to be L5R it needs to properly appeal to both of these.  I don't have a judgement on the state of the game for this as I'm still getting into games with the new system.  I'll have to check back later.  It is vitally important the game encompasses the fantasy of both of these eras well.

Its okay to disagree with people, and its okay to argue your position.  This is a forum.  The purpose here is exactly that - post our opinions, argue and defend them.  I'm not here to sell you on staying, or change my behavior to suit you at all.  These posts kinda upset me because its like you're trying to shame me for engaging with the community.  Its not my fault you thought you were supposed to be "group 3 - brings both sides together."  You can't please everyone, so when someone makes it obvious they will not be pleased - let it go.

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I just have a hard time seeing what's fair criticism and what's knee-jerk crying that the system isn't a slightly modified version of a game we have 4 slightly modified versions of. A lot of it honestly sounds like the latter, which isn't productive to anything. People laud 4e as the perfect game, so keep playing that. I will be until the beta is closer to a finished product at least. FFG can certainly do wrong, that's why they released a beta test not a finished book. But I'm going to raise my voice against changing elements of the system if the only reason to do so is because AEG made their game more to someone else's liking. Go play AEG's game, they have more books than FFG likely ever will, there's no reason not to play AEG's over FFG's if you don't care about their new take on Rokugan and Samurai Drama.

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Someone's having an Outburst.

Seriously, though, my first reaction was: Custom dice, obvious marketing scheme, I'm never buying stupid dice for a single game, this is garbage, I'm not reading this, not playing this, it's bad and should feel bad, I'm buying every 4th ed book and pretending 5th ed never existed.

And then I actually gave the book a chance.

Those beta rules are good. This forum isn't terribly uncivilized either. I haven't seen the kind of fights referenced in OP's post. Sure, some people are mad it's not 4th ed, I get the feeling, I was like that for a few days before I sobered up. But it's not like everyone is trolling and being insufferable about who is right and who isn't. This is a beta, and there is civilized discussion about what works and what doesn't. And I wish OP would have come to us with a more detailed story of what didn't work in his attempts to run these rules, because well that's precisely the point of a beta, and it could have helped us all.

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5 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

I vehemently object to one element that several FFG games use: fixed numbers of range bands moved for a given portion of a turn, while the range bands are not the same distance. I genuinely think Jay's off his rocker for thinking it a good idea, and pushing it for WFRP3 and FFG Star wars. 

I'd agree with you on this one. I've no problem with movement being a vaguely-defined number of Zones (like Time Lord* and FATE) that roughly correspond to 'this side of the yard' and 'over there where the dudes with the bows are', rather than arguing about whether a 15.5 or 15.7 yard move is needed.

But covering effective bow range in the same timeperiod that someone else covers throwing knife range is clearly wrong.

 

 

* drat, I feel old

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3 hours ago, llamaman88 said:

I just have a hard time seeing what's fair criticism and what's knee-jerk crying that the system isn't a slightly modified version of a game we have 4 slightly modified versions of. A lot of it honestly sounds like the latter, which isn't productive to anything. People laud 4e as the perfect game, so keep playing that. I will be until the beta is closer to a finished product at least. FFG can certainly do wrong, that's why they released a beta test not a finished book. But I'm going to raise my voice against changing elements of the system if the only reason to do so is because AEG made their game more to someone else's liking. Go play AEG's game, they have more books than FFG likely ever will, there's no reason not to play AEG's over FFG's if you don't care about their new take on Rokugan and Samurai Drama.

I have never said that 4th is perfect. When my group and I play it we use a lot of house rules. The point I was making was in its current state this game is a total mess IMHO, and that from what I've seen on this forum so far I don't think it will get to even the has some problems level of 4th. My issues with this version(I guess their calling 5th ed) is that instead of making it their own or fixing 4th they decided to try to please everyone by making this hybrid game. I not going to lie and say that I would buy a narrative dice game like star wars again, but at least I would respect their decision to and right to do so. 

As for the story. I'm not impressed yet, but it has not really started yet either so I can't make a decision yet.

 

39 minutes ago, shizumaru said:

Someone's having an Outburst.

Seriously, though, my first reaction was: Custom dice, obvious marketing scheme, I'm never buying stupid dice for a single game, this is garbage, I'm not reading this, not playing this, it's bad and should feel bad, I'm buying every 4th ed book and pretending 5th ed never existed.

And then I actually gave the book a chance.

Those beta rules are good. This forum isn't terribly uncivilized either. I haven't seen the kind of fights referenced in OP's post. Sure, some people are mad it's not 4th ed, I get the feeling, I was like that for a few days before I sobered up. But it's not like everyone is trolling and being insufferable about who is right and who isn't. This is a beta, and there is civilized discussion about what works and what doesn't. And I wish OP would have come to us with a more detailed story of what didn't work in his attempts to run these rules, because well that's precisely the point of a beta, and it could have helped us all.

This is not my first reaction, that was in the Beta 1st Impressions  thread. And I never said people where not being civilized in their discussions. I said the arguments over the rule that I saw amount to I'm right and your wrong. To me this is not productive and just leads to nothing getting done. When half the people are saying strife is great and the other half say you should drop it how do you fix that. FFG is going to have to make choices that will upset one group or the other. So IMHO they need to decided which group its going to be. 

As for the gaming groups. I had each player download the book and read it before they came.

1st group Friday 4 players : I got as far as character creation with this group and three of the four decision they had already had enough and asked me to return to my Pendragon game or restart my 4th game. (We where on hiatus from L5R 4th to play test 5th)

2nd group Saturday 6 players: two called me the day before the game to tell me they were not coming and to call them back when I was done running the play test. The four that showed up got past character creation, but when we ran a trial combat requested we go back to 4th so I called my other two friend and that is what we did.

I have already listed their complaints in the forum. Since it was all stuff I have posted in multiple threads I did not see a need to rehash it again.

Edited by tenchi2a

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31 minutes ago, WHW said:

I gmed this a few times already, and got to play, too. Prep time for the person who GMed me took literally 15 minutes between "I wonder how would it feel to GM this" and "ok do you have a sheet?". None of my players want to look at 4th ed ever again, nor do I . 

Never said no one would like it. I despise Rifts, but it still sells and people play it. Not that I'm saying that your opinion is not valid for you, but just because you and your group like it is not a valid defense of the game. As my group disliking it is not a reason for me to say you should not play it. 

Edited by tenchi2a

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Open playtest always end with such a mess, two sides battling each other and not trying to move forward. Sadly, it's a normal human reaction in big groups. I've seen it in others playtests. That why picking playtesters who can actually test with less biais and more will to discuss the subject are better choices.

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Yeah the forums of open playtests are often cluttered with battles about who has the better opinion.  Thats why my approach on this is read the forums for ideas and fun but give the feedback via email directly to the designers. On that way you a) know it is read by the people that matter and b) it actually can help to come to useful solutions for given problems.

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3 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

Yeah the forums of open playtests are often cluttered with battles about who has the better opinion.  Thats why my approach on this is read the forums for ideas and fun but give the feedback via email directly to the designers. On that way you a) know it is read by the people that matter and b) it actually can help to come to useful solutions for given problems.

Do we have a clue when they are going to send the first E-mail?

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2 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

Yeah the forums of open playtests are often cluttered with battles about who has the better opinion.  Thats why my approach on this is read the forums for ideas and fun but give the feedback via email directly to the designers. On that way you a) know it is read by the people that matter and b) it actually can help to come to useful solutions for given problems.

I emailed too my review. I prefered to work like I worked on the playtest for 3rd and 4th. It sounded more efficient to me. I do not know if they will actually read it (as in, have the time, because their e-mail may be as cluttered as the forums). I have my problems with this edition, but I'm willing to ignore them to work on the new one and make it a better game (problems who aren't related to playtesting it).

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4 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Do we have a clue when they are going to send the first E-mail?

Good question but to be honest I did not wait for that. In the introduction mail they refenced their direct contact and I just used that to send my feedback and it worked.  So I suggest just doing that until the offical email arrives.

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But @Teveshszat I'm so obviously right and people need to know! :rolleyes: What am I supposed to do, just waste a perfectly good opinion?

6 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

The only thing I can see to make this game work is to split it in two.

One half being the 4th revised/5th ed R&K game, and the other being a campaign setting for Genesys. Other then that I don't think it will work.

or just picking one or the other.

Based on the White Wolf/Onyx Path/whatever precedent for Vampire/etc., I bet a "L5R Classic" or "Revised" or "Whatever Anniversary" is not out of the question. Though I doubt they'll ditch new R&K. 

Edited by sidescroller

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6 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

This whole beta has become to much. I have seen nothing but arguments over they rule that amount to I'm right and your wrong. In truth I think that theses rule are junk. Forget a beta this needs to go back to an alpha.

5

Welcome in Dark Heresy 2.0 Beta 2: Electric Boogaloo. I have seen this before, and you know what? I'm getting nostalgic :D!

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6 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

As for splitting out advantages and disads from the main of character gen? there are a lot of them already, and seeing the rest of CGenfixed first is a good tactical decision - it's not a "They're separate"  but a, "We need to set the context firmly first" type decision.

Were I differ here is, that there are quite a lot of rule that are interconnected in this game.

Lets say hypothetically that FFG gets down to conflict and decided that Strife isn't working and remove it. Great now you have two schools Shiba Guardian and Akodo Commander that have school abilities that are linked to that system. Now they need to rewrite these schools abilities, but they are past all other sections of the game. How do you make sure that they are not under or overpowered when you are that far into the beta. If they go back it throws off the Schedule and there is still the chance that it may brake other parts of the game. This is the issues I see with preset schedules for things like this.

That and the when I see a schedules like this I always get the sinking feeling that the company is just paying me lip-service. Its to tight to allow for any major changes so I feel I'm just here to proofread a rule set and that most I my suggestions/complainants will be ignored. Not saying that's what their doing, but I have seen this in many betas both RPG and MMOs I have been involved in.

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Just to be clear I like some of the thing that where added in the beta, and if this doesn't workout I plan to implement them in my 4th ed game.

1. The idea of different dice for traits/rings. Here I would change traits/rings dice to d8s

2. I have already adopted the +10 rule with is just like opportunities. Rule: For every +10 you roll over the TN you get a free.

3. Thinking about adding the ranges to the game to fix reach weapons. Right now I'm just using a +5 armor TN till you get hit. That you get back when you hit.

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2 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

As for the gaming groups. I had each player download the book and read it before they came.

1st group Friday 4 players : I got as far as character creation with this group and three of the four decision they had already had enough and asked me to return to my Pendragon game or restart my 4th game. (We where on hiatus from L5R 4th to play test 5th)

2nd group Saturday 6 players: two called me the day before the game to tell me they were not coming and to call them back when I was done running the play test. The four that showed up got past character creation, but when we ran a trial combat requested we go back to 4th so I called my other two friend and that is what we did.

I have already listed their complaints in the forum. Since it was all stuff I have posted in multiple threads I did not see a need to rehash it again.

No disrespect to your players, but I’m not getting the impression they were very willing to give this beta a fair chance, never mind making a real effort to test it.

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18 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

No disrespect to your players, but I’m not getting the impression they were very willing to give this beta a fair chance, never mind making a real effort to test it.

It also doesn't sound as though the GM is not giving off particularly good vibes either.

I came into this expecting 'Star Wars dice' which I at best think are fun for one-offs and con games, and at worse I think are dreadful. However, this 'hybrid' you seem to hate so much I think has actually unlocked a lot of potential in the narrative dice and this iteration has made me rethink my opinion of them as a concept.

I can't imagine what the OP intends to contribute to the Beta they dislike its core as much as they do, apart from just repeating everything they hate and derailing threads. But hopefully if they do stay they can channel this hybrid system (which like it or not FF seem locked-in to) in the right direction.

Edited by Bazakahuna

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36 minutes ago, Bazakahuna said:

It also doesn't sound as though the GM is not giving off particularly good vibes either.

Benefit of the doubt. I’m willing to believe OP didn’t have a good first impression but was willing to test the system. He just seems to have taken the fact that his players are unwilling to give it a real chance as proof his misgivings are correct, which is not how actual testing is supposed to go.

I wasn’t keen on quite a few concepts in the beta (the dice are mostly a “well, it’s FFG, what did I expect?” thing for me) and my group isn’t up to doing a full test, but running a few testcase situations by myself at least gave me a better perspective and appreciation for some of them. I’d definitely want some tweaking of Strife to tone it down a bit (seems unlikely to happen though) and I’m not happy with the skill system, but combat feels better than I thought it would. I actually like duel/one on one contest mechanics, it turns out, I just feel the balance and relevant clan-specific abilities are off. Without practical testing I wouldn’t have changed my mind about any of these.

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2 minutes ago, SideshowLucifer said:

There are specific things that won t change. Strife won t go away. Neither will the dice. Those two things are the foundation of the entire system. Strife might be tweaked to better effect though.

And I think at this point that's what the beta will be for, ie, tweaking what they've shown us to be better.

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5 minutes ago, SideshowLucifer said:

There are specific things that won t change. Strife won t go away. Neither will the dice. Those two things are the foundation of the entire system. Strife might be tweaked to better effect though.

1

I think they will kill Strife and rework the result to be more like Threats from SW. 

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