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PinnacleOfJimbo

Board State Misrepresentation and Forced Interrupts

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So I ran into a little issue at a tournament that got me thinking...

Here's what happened:

During the fate phase, my opponent had an honored character that left play, but he forgot to get an honor (I did not realize it either). We moved on through the regroup phase into the next round, completed the dynasty phase, and moved into the draw phase. We bid on our honor dials, drew cards, traded honor, and THEN he remembered he had discarded the honored character and grabbed an extra honor. He said he could do that because it is a forced interrupt.

Here's my issue - him having that extra honor could have impacted the bid we each made. In this case it wouldn't have had a dramatic effect, but I can definitely see cases where it would have. I think this is a misrepresentation of board state.

This was a tournament - it wasn't a high stakes tournament but it was a tournament, not casual play. What should have been done in that case? Do we rewind? What if the difference in honor would have caused the end of the game (ie honor loss or victory?) My opinion is that even through it is a forced interrupt and therefore required, remembering it after the next round's honor bid should have a consequence. Maybe the offending player has to forfeit the extra honor. maybe there has to be a rewind (but I don't know what we would rewind to, considering that we've already revealed what we were going to bid).

Is there any official ruling on this? Thoughts?

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I think it is inappropriate to back up even for a Forced ability if any choices already made would have been effected by that change - ie bidding if the honor count was not as shown.  If a player revealed an Earth Province with the Seeker of Earth Role and forgot to claim their fate, when their opponent plays Levy near the end of the turn (seeing the opponent without fate) it is then unacceptable to me to back up and claim that fate.

Edited by shosuko

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My policy for tournaments is, if you forget a trigger, you can only take it back as long as I haven't made any new decisions. Once I start making choices on how to interact with the game, I need to know that the game state is accurately represented. If I make a play, make a choice, or anything of that sort, then it's too late to go back and fix something.

If you miss your trigger and catch it before I have interacted with you, then sure, I'll let you take it back, even if it's optional.

Edited by Saibrock

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In all the FFG tournament rules they have a missed opportunity clause. Giving people a chance when it comes up is fine but as soon as something else happens it's a missed opportunity. In casual games and locals that can be ok but in tournaments it's pretty big

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3 hours ago, shosuko said:

I think it is inappropriate to back up even for a Forced ability if any choices already made would have been effected by that change - ie bidding if the honor count was not as shown.  If a player revealed an Earth Province with the Seeker of Earth Role and forgot to claim their fate, when their opponent plays Levy near the end of the turn (seeing the opponent without fate) it is then unacceptable to me to back up and claim that fate.

Those 2 examples aren't equivalent: Seeker of Earth has a Reaction (optional), while the status tokens have a Forced Interrupt (mandatory). Also, both players are responsible for maintaining the game state, which includes triggering Forced abilities when appropriate.

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This is only a game, even in tournaments, so i dont have trouble letting my opponents redo moves or bring back forgotten elements. On the contraire, if i'm the one who missed i assume is my fault and my opponent don't have to let me change anything.

Just a matter of politeness and honor. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

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Ok so it seems like the sticking point here is the "forced interrupt" part. I combed through the available rules to see what I could find. Currently there is not a Tournament Regulations document for L5R, but here is what I found in the RR:

59e5d65054170_ScreenShot2017-10-17at5_59_06AM.png.76d250b124a83821a1cec6caffb178b3.png

"Such abilities must be resolved immediately whenever the triggering condition [...] occurs." So already by retroactively taking the honor we're in the territory of bending the rules.

59e5d73e3d465_ScreenShot2017-10-17at6_00_45AM.png.0542b05779cf46a72e94dff31a5d86af.png

Again, the rules specify the exact point at which the ability must be triggered.

Because there is no missed opportunity section in the rules reference, and there currently is no tournament regulations document for L5R, I looked up the missed opportunity sections for Star Wars LCG and GoT 2.0 LCG, which read identically:

https://imgur.com/a/K0caY

https://imgur.com/a/cUAXP

Basically, if a player forgets to trigger something, he cannot retroactively use it (without the other player's consent).

All the official FFG rules seem to make it pretty clear: the forced interrupt has to happen at the appropriate time, and if it's forgotten it can't be triggered after the timing window has passed.

The only caveat I see is that both players are responsible for board state, so in this situation (and similar situations), I am also at fault for not noticing the forced interrupt and saying something at the right time. My personal solution will be to be hyper-aware of all triggers, forced and otherwise, on the board at all times. However, I am going to maintain that in edge cases where both players fail to maintain game state regarding forced interruptions, the missed opportunity must remained missed in a tournament situation. I'm obviously not a judge but that is what I will argue for. In some cases it will be a minor issue, but I would rather apply that reasoning universally than only argue it when it would matter (ie the takeback results in a win/loss).

 

 

Edited by PinnacleOfJimbo

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In AGoT2 (not sure about SW, I stopped playing a long time ago), Forced abilities are not triggered by any player, but by the game itself. They are not opportunities missed by a player, and forgetting them results in an illegal game state rather than a missed opportunity.

Quote

Which abilities does Catelyn Stark (Core, 143) prevent an opponent from using?
Catelyn prevents an opponent from using triggered card abilities that he or she would initiate. A triggered ability is indicatedby a bold timing trigger, such as Action, Interrupt, Reaction, Dominance Action, and so forth. Catelyn prevents an opponent from initiating such bold-faced abilities. However, Forced abilities and When Revealed abilities are initiated automatically by the game (as opposed to being initiated by the player who controls the card), so Catelyn does not prevent these two classes of triggered abilities. Additionally, using a duplicate is defined as a triggered game ability (as opposed to a triggered card ability), and therefore Catelyn does not prevent the use of duplicates. Finally, any ability that is not prefaced with a bold timing trigger (such as a keyword, like ambush) is not considered a triggered ability, and is not prevented by Catelyn’s text.

 

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2 hours ago, PinnacleOfJimbo said:

Ok so it seems like the sticking point here is the "forced interrupt" part. I combed through the available rules to see what I could find. Currently there is not a Tournament Regulations document for L5R, but here is what I found in the RR:

59e5d65054170_ScreenShot2017-10-17at5_59_06AM.png.76d250b124a83821a1cec6caffb178b3.png

"Such abilities must be resolved immediately whenever the triggering condition [...] occurs." So already by retroactively taking the honor we're in the territory of bending the rules.

59e5d73e3d465_ScreenShot2017-10-17at6_00_45AM.png.0542b05779cf46a72e94dff31a5d86af.png

Again, the rules specify the exact point at which the ability must be triggered.

Because there is no missed opportunity section in the rules reference, and there currently is no tournament regulations document for L5R, I looked up the missed opportunity sections for Star Wars LCG and GoT 2.0 LCG, which read identically:

https://imgur.com/a/K0caY

https://imgur.com/a/cUAXP

Basically, if a player forgets to trigger something, he cannot retroactively use it (without the other player's consent).

All the official FFG rules seem to make it pretty clear: the forced interrupt has to happen at the appropriate time, and if it's forgotten it can't be triggered after the timing window has passed.

The only caveat I see is that both players are responsible for board state, so in this situation (and similar situations), I am also at fault for not noticing the forced interrupt and saying something at the right time. My personal solution will be to be hyper-aware of all triggers, forced and otherwise, on the board at all times. However, I am going to maintain that in edge cases where both players fail to maintain game state regarding forced interruptions, the missed opportunity must remained missed in a tournament situation. I'm obviously not a judge but that is what I will argue for. In some cases it will be a minor issue, but I would rather apply that reasoning universally than only argue it when it would matter (ie the takeback results in a win/loss).

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Also, if the cards have not yet been drawn, it wouldn't be out of order to redo the bids.

Sort of both of these?

 

We have a few of these "mandatory" issues in X-wing, and it's thorny. In theory, you're not supposed to be allowed to miss a mandatory effect (because some are negative), so the game state is now illegal.

It [unfortunately, but necessarily] is on both players to monitor mandatory effects, so in this case, both players are at fault. If the situation is easily fixable, they should fix it (if cards have not yet been drawn, for instance). 

The problem is when you get too far away from the mandatory effect, it's nearly impossible to roll the game state back sufficiently, because everyone has made decisions from what they thought was the correct board state, but wasn't. There is no easy fix.

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On 10/16/2017 at 10:23 PM, PinnacleOfJimbo said:

Here's my issue - him having that extra honor could have impacted the bid we each made.

This is my issue too.  If you've made decisions based on his (I'm presuming gender) misrepresented board state, then I'd say 'nope'.

Also, that resolution is in Fate Phase (IV), then you go through Regroup (V), Dynasty (I) and now you're in the Draw (II) Phase.  The previous round has ended and you've started again.

I accept that both are responsible to remember forced abilities, but I feel that at this stage the forced ability should be enforced or non-enforced based upon whom missed it and whom it benefits.  If it was missed by the person whom it benefits, then (at this distance from the event) I say they don't get it.  If it would instead harm them, I would say the do get it.  Now, this point can be used to sit quietly and be a prick – which I neither endorse nor encourage.

As a reductio-ad-absurdum counter example, if it were instead three rounds later and someone remembered that, would you allow it then?

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3 rounds later, I definitely wouldn't go back on it. I also wouldn't go back on it if the cards have been drawn, or if an intervening play would have been affected (Scorpion Stronghold, for instance).

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It's a Forced Reaction, so yeah, up to both players to maintain the game state as best as they can. If the opponent remembered any time prior to the honour bid (or some other relevant trigger) then I think it's appropriate to gain the honour.

However, once honour has been bid you've arguably interfered with the game; e.g. if they predicted you bidding high and you bid low to steal honour, you can't really just redo the bids because they now have knowledge of your potential play. In that case, I think it's fair for the opponent to lose a beneficial trigger (where as if it was a negative trigger such as losing honour from a Dishonoured character, they should still have to take it). I'd agree though that's there's something of a 'statute of limitations' on this; remembering three turns later that you should have lost an honour is really too late to fix.

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From other FFG games, especially at higher levels of play.

BOTH players are responsible for any forced interrupts. In this case, it is not correct to state that your "opponent forgot", or "your opponent missed his opportunity". Regardless of who benefits from the error you BOTH forgot. You correct it as best you can, and what you two did sounds like the best solution you had available.

Something similar could be if you had forgotten to remove a fate from one of your characters. You couldn't go back and say "I forgot, so therefore the fate stays on". It's illegal, both players were responsible, you correct the board state as best you can and remove the fate when you realize it was missed.

If you try to go down the "I missed it, but enough time has passed" road, you reach a point where cheating is encouraged because you can "forget" things and if your opponent doesn't see them immediately you can claim missed opportunity. In this case, had the character been "dishonored" and you had realized it, he would have been obligated to give up an honor as well. On the other hand, practically speaking there isn't much you can do 3 turns later/etc.

Edited by KineticOperator
Grammar

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