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Nitroxylin

Razor-Edged quality name is somewhat misleading

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The name of the Razor-Edged weapon quality might sound like it implies a beneficial effect, but its actual innate mechanical effect is definitely a drawback.
Maybe it should be renamed for a more fitting connotation? Painstakingly Honed or something like that.

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If you are looking to use Iaijustu then it is definitely a positive as otherwise you cannot use that weapon, it's all subjective. I get that language is important, but razor-edged is a pretty accurate and objective description of the weapon.

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11 minutes ago, WHW said:

Would be nice if Razor Edged increased deadliness as a part of the perk, i guess. Would remove the awkwardness of de-razor edging a katana for a mighty 7 crit weapon that doesn't care about doing any damage.

But also can't be used for Iaijutsu (I think that's the only technique currently which calls for it, but there might be more in the future)

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5 hours ago, WHW said:

Would be nice if Razor Edged increased deadliness as a part of the perk, i guess. Would remove the awkwardness of de-razor edging a katana for a mighty 7 crit weapon that doesn't care about doing any damage.

But a weapon either is, or is not a Razor Edge weapon by type.  What difference is there to say a Katana is 5 deadliness (+2 if 2 handed) or to say it is 3 deadliness (+2 if 2 handed) (+2 b/c Razor Edge) if all katana are razor edge?

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22 minutes ago, shosuko said:

But a weapon either is, or is not a Razor Edge weapon by type.  What difference is there to say a Katana is 5 deadliness (+2 if 2 handed) or to say it is 3 deadliness (+2 if 2 handed) (+2 b/c Razor Edge) if all katana are razor edge?

The Water Artisan Opportunity allows for you ti "Add or remove the Cumbersome or Razor-edged quality to an item you are adapting."

Currently when fitting a blade into a new hilt (Water TN 3) as a Downtime action if you get an Opportunity you can adjust the grind on the blade to keep the damage and deadliness while losing the risky Razor-edged property at the cost of only losing its ability to be used foe Iaijutsu.

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42 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The Water Artisan Opportunity allows for you ti "Add or remove the Cumbersome or Razor-edged quality to an item you are adapting."

Currently when fitting a blade into a new hilt (Water TN 3) as a Downtime action if you get an Opportunity you can adjust the grind on the blade to keep the damage and deadliness while losing the risky Razor-edged property at the cost of only losing its ability to be used foe Iaijutsu.

True - that definitely shows why it would be good to tie part of the deadliness to the Razor Edge quality instead.

I would preferably they remove such a foolish option though.  You can't add or remove razor edge from a weapon without fundamentally changing the weapon.  If you take the razor edge off of a katana, it is a metal stick not worth swinging.  Likewise you can't add a razor edge to a bokken lol

Perhaps instead of breaking a razor edge weapon immediately, they can have it lose its edge - and lose the Razor Edge bonus deadliness before it becomes damaged. 

Edited by shosuko

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Razor edged, in the current system, is jsuta key word thats uses as prequisite for some techniques. Yes theoretically it could get your weapon damaged but to be fair evey weapon allways has durable.
The reason for that is that the smithing[earth] check you need has a TN of 1 and you only need 1 opportunity to add durable to the weapon you are using the check on.
Since durable negates the damaged condition your razor edged weapon should never get actually damaged and you can replenish it after or even during the combat scene.
So as it currently is I would just get rid of the get damaged option as it does nothing at all allready.

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3 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

Razor edged, in the current system, is jsuta key word thats uses as prequisite for some techniques. Yes theoretically it could get your weapon damaged but to be fair evey weapon allways has durable.
The reason for that is that the smithing[earth] check you need has a TN of 1 and you only need 1 opportunity to add durable to the weapon you are using the check on.
Since durable negates the damaged condition your razor edged weapon should never get actually damaged and you can replenish it after or even during the combat scene.
So as it currently is I would just get rid of the get damaged option as it does nothing at all allready.

The only weapon that has both Razor-edged and Durable is the Unicorn Scimitar.

and its hard to get an opportunity and still pass the test at early Ranks.

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4 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

The only weapon that has both Razor-edged and Durable is the Unicorn Scimitar.

and its hard to get an opportunity and still pass the test at early Ranks.

No it is not. You just start with earth 3 and get atleast 1 rank in smithing. If you get a second one for xp with the adventure you
suceed reliably and also get 1 opportunity. Remember you only need 1 sucess to suceed.
As rule of thumb when you have 2 twice or more dice than the tn needs sucesses you pass it often enough.
And smithing also has no negative outcome so you can try until you pass.
So even with smithing 1 and earth 2 it is pretty given that you get durable on your weapon.

 

Edited by Teveshszat

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1 minute ago, Teveshszat said:

No it is not. You just start with earth 3 and get atleast 1 rank in smithing. If you get a second one for xp with the adventure you
suceed reliably and also get 1 opportunity. Remember you only need 1 sucess to suceed.
As rule of thumb when you have 2 twice or more dice than the tn needs sucesses you pass it often enough.
And smithing also has no negative outcome so you can try until you pass.

 

Seems kind of broken in the why bother have the negative effect of Razor-edged then.

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3 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Seems kind of broken in the why bother have the negative effect of Razor-edged then.

thats my point. We just don´t need it, as it has no effect.

Edited by Teveshszat

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The reason for negative effect of Razor Edged is to make hitting a person wearing massive armor and 30 hp for exactly 2 successes, then keeping enough opportunities to crit, doing 0 damage but delivering a crit, and then having your buddy who is next in initiative do the same, disabling the opponent who took 0 damage but is probably armless by now, not the meta. 

This still can be done, but for the price of breaking your swords. 

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42 minutes ago, WHW said:

The reason for negative effect of Razor Edged is to make hitting a person wearing massive armor and 30 hp for exactly 2 successes, then keeping enough opportunities to crit, doing 0 damage but delivering a crit, and then having your buddy who is next in initiative do the same, disabling the opponent who took 0 damage but is probably armless by now, not the meta. 

This still can be done, but for the price of breaking your swords. 

Seems to me like a mechanics issues being fixed with a band-aid.

If there is an issues with Crits it seems to me they should fix Crits so you have to due at-least one point of damage to the target. Even with how much I hate Star Wars FFG, I have to say at-least they got this right.

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1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

If there is an issues with Crits it seems to me they should fix Crits so you have to due at-least one point of damage to the target. Even with how much I hate Star Wars FFG, I have to say at-least they got this right.

To be honest I don't mind this. It makes the mass-blunt-force-trauma-to-incapacitate and 'repeated crippling strikes' schools of combat play very differently. 

2 hours ago, WHW said:

The reason for negative effect of Razor Edged is to make hitting a person wearing massive armor and 30 hp for exactly 2 successes, then keeping enough opportunities to crit, doing 0 damage but delivering a crit, and then having your buddy who is next in initiative do the same, disabling the opponent who took 0 damage but is probably armless by now, not the meta. 

This still can be done, but for the price of breaking your swords. 

Also note that there are some techniques or effects which just deliver the critical strike. Fire opportunities in a mass battle, for example.

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5 hours ago, Teveshszat said:

No it is not. You just start with earth 3 and get atleast 1 rank in smithing. If you get a second one for xp with the adventure you
suceed reliably and also get 1 opportunity. Remember you only need 1 sucess to suceed.
As rule of thumb when you have 2 twice or more dice than the tn needs sucesses you pass it often enough.
And smithing also has no negative outcome so you can try until you pass.
So even with smithing 1 and earth 2 it is pretty given that you get durable on your weapon.

The problem seems to be more in the opportunities/actions presented for the Artisan skill group.

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6 hours ago, Teveshszat said:

Razor edged, in the current system, is jsuta key word thats uses as prequisite for some techniques. Yes theoretically it could get your weapon damaged but to be fair evey weapon allways has durable.
The reason for that is that the smithing[earth] check you need has a TN of 1 and you only need 1 opportunity to add durable to the weapon you are using the check on.
Since durable negates the damaged condition your razor edged weapon should never get actually damaged and you can replenish it after or even during the combat scene.
So as it currently is I would just get rid of the get damaged option as it does nothing at all allready.

I have an issue with the way those skills are being used.  I'm not sure if their intention was that you could just fiddle with your sword, or armor and change so much about it.  I hope these change so it is part of the item creation, or at least a more serious undertaking.

33 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The problem seems to be more in the opportunities/actions presented for the Artisan skill group.

^

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54 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I have an issue with the way those skills are being used.  I'm not sure if their intention was that you could just fiddle with your sword, or armor and change so much about it.  I hope these change so it is part of the item creation, or at least a more serious undertaking.

^

I don´t say I like it but thats how it is at the moment. I mean thats why we discuss this here to change obvious exploits into a functional rule.

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23 hours ago, Teveshszat said:

No it is not. You just start with earth 3 and get atleast 1 rank in smithing. If you get a second one for xp with the adventure you
suceed reliably and also get 1 opportunity. Remember you only need 1 sucess to suceed.
As rule of thumb when you have 2 twice or more dice than the tn needs sucesses you pass it often enough.
And smithing also has no negative outcome so you can try until you pass.
So even with smithing 1 and earth 2 it is pretty given that you get durable on your weapon.

Outside of a conflict scene, If a test has no negative outcome if it fails and you plan on repeating it till you get the result you want then the GM is perfectly justified in not permitting you to make the check:
 

Quote

 

ask yourself the following questions:

  1. Could the character fail?
  2. Could they possibly succeed?
  3. Are the consequences of success different from the consequences of failure?
  4. Are the consequences of success and failure both interesting?

If you answered "no" to any of these questions, don’t have the character make a check.

 

If you're repairing a Katana you've previously damaged, and manage to add durable to it into the bargain, or you're producing a brand new weapon, fair enough.

You can't just make a check without the GM's say-so.

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Quote

Outside of a conflict scene, If a test has no negative outcome if it fails and you plan on repeating it till you get the result you want then the GM is perfectly justified in not permitting you to make the check:

To be fair the test needs  to has to have intresting outcomes. Intresting is not necssarily negative.  But than the topic is not what the Gm can and can´t here it is about potential problems with the mecahnics
in the book so we can prevent the situation where a GM has to go and say no because someone found an abuseable mechanic we could have fixed in the beta.
The GM can allways go and say I don´t allow this but that has nothing to do with how the rules behave because  his ability to do so is independent from the L5r rules and can be applied to any other system in the
same way.
It is also a bad excuse for the phase we are in to say yeah the GM has to fix it. We are in the beta to test it for a reason and delegating potentional mechanical problem to the GM at this point is just not the best
Idea in my eyes.

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17 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Outside of a conflict scene, If a test has no negative outcome if it fails and you plan on repeating it till you get the result you want then the GM is perfectly justified in not permitting you to make the check:

Why would a GMs ruling even be a factor in a beta? That's the point of a beta to fix or get rid of rules like this that can be exploited.

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