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Drudenfusz

The Greatest Story in Gaming, Legend of the Five Rings

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Very interesting. I really hope FFG will be able to build something similar, avoiding the pitfalls that AEG felt into. 

The LCG format may be less suited to the clan loyalty concept, but it seems to be there already thanks to the old playerbase; if FFG will take that much care in translating events at tournaments into story and cards, it will be a great journey indeed.

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 I don't think FFG could ever do a lot of what we hear in this video, mainly the internet makes everything to solved and because the original L5R was all about these weird extra factions, these convoluted win conditions, and really allowing people to force a narrative into the game with funky new concepts and card interactions. Ideas like "building the walls of Otosan Uchi", winning through enlightenment, leading the shadowlands and so on... not only are they absent but people actively argue against them ever showing up again.

So many people seem to care too much about "keeping the game good and balanced" that those new ideas and willingness to fully go with the flow will probably never see play.

Heck, mention the idea of new factions and people complain to the stars that its unmanageable and terrible, but it was at the heart of the original game. At the clan war there were at least 11 factions which added so much to the world of the game.

Bring up how cool it would be to see an enlightenment victory and people complain that it simply eats up design and wouldn't be fairly balanced.

Bring up factions like Mantis, Shadowlands, or any other faction and people whine that it should only be the 7 clans, that the game "cant support them", that they "don't fit the flavor" as if that was ever how l5r cared to function. Again, the Day of thunder had 11+ factions and there was an ending for each one.  

This stubbornness and need to "play it safe" could very well become a stranglehold on design, especially if they listen to the screaming fanbases. Already the most interesting design idea, the Keeper and Seeker only cards, have only been around for a little over a week and people are raging against them, singular cards out of the 120 coming out for the game. I'm not vouching for them to flood the game with jank and weird, non intuitive stuff, but I feel like when they do... I just hope the reception isn't ruined by the whiners to the point that they lose the excitement to innovate, because L5R is rooted in that concept of dynamic innovation at its heart.   

Stories like Hoturi's egging, the birth of the Shadow Dragon, the dealings over the Tao of F u-Leng, and other famous stories of players actually making a difference are so great because of the weird designs that were embraced. I hope we get to see more things of that nature going forward.

Edited by TheItsyBitsySpider

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11 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Stories like Hoturi's egging, the birth of the Shadow Dragon, the dealings over the Tao of F u-Leng, and other famous stories of players actually making a difference are so great because of the weird designs that were embraced. I hope we get to see more things of that nature going forward.

I agree, but a lot of this should start from the players, not just waiting for FFG to act.

If during a Kotei two finalists decide to agree on a result based on a story/lore decision, or strongly highlight certain plays during the match, that's a stronger player-influence than any "choose solution A or B" that FFG can provide. Obviously, FFG would have to act based upon that event, but I don't think they would be so careless to not take it into consideration.

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This was just amazing. You can tell that he really cared about this experience he and his friends had with the game during that time. On another note, 31:40 on the video, so that's how the Mantis becomes a Great Clan.

Instead what I read in the 4th Ed Great Clans book, p. 146

Quote

When the Day of Thunder arrived, Yoritomo undertook a desperate gambit in the tradition of his ancestor Gusai. As the clan armies assembled for the final battle, Yoritomo boldly stated that if the Mantis were not recognized as a Great Clan by the rest of Rokugan, they would sail away and abandon the Empire to its fate. Needing every soldier for the ensuing battle, the Great Clans reluctantly agreed. After the battle and the Empire’s victory, the new Emperor Toturi kept the agreement and offi cially recognized the Mantis as a Great Clan. Moreover, Yoritomo was given permission to found a new family and pass his name on to his vassals and descendants. 

Interesting and different. 

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1 hour ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

This was just amazing. You can tell that he really cared about this experience he and his friends had with the game during that time. On another note, 31:40 on the video, so that's how the Mantis becomes a Great Clan.

Instead what I read in the 4th Ed Great Clans book, p. 146

Interesting and different. 

It definitively justifies the stereotype of the Mantis being a clan of conniving scalawags...

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On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 9:14 AM, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Bring up how cool it would be to see an enlightenment victory and people complain that it simply eats up design and wouldn't be fairly balanced.

I feel this is a little unfair to people arguing against Enlightenment.  Personally, I've never really heard arguments against it based on balance and whatnot.  Rather, people argue that it simply wasn't fun to play against.  The Enlightenment player often sat back and essentially played solitaire, with very little interaction outside of, "I shut down your actions so they can't prevent me from sitting back and being enlightened."

Granted, if they decided to go a new route for Enlightenment (for instance, making it possible to take five rings in a turn?), it's possible it could be done without dragging the game down, but most of the enlightenment ideas I've seen were petitioning for a return of CCGesque Enlightenment.

22 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

It definitively justifies the stereotype of the Mantis being a clan of conniving scalawags...

Excuse me, that's "clan of conniving scalawags with top-notch archery skills," thank you very much!

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There's a fundamental perspective difference between two groups of l5r players: those who want game to drive story and those who want story to drive the game.  At its very extreme you get people who only care about story ("This @^&#@! story decision is the result of some random card tournament and makes no sense!") and those who only care about gameplay ("I don't care if Air doesn't fit our clan, Seeker of Air boosts are economy and we should go for it!") but they're by and large the exception.  Most players care at least a bit about each.

Enlightenment victory was not some obscure, strange win condition, but it was a difficult condition that the game didn't really support.  The weird ones (rebuild the walls of Otosan Uchi, play all seven Bushido virtues, and my personal favorite) added to the flavor of the game but did't really affect balance in competitive play.  They did, however, increase the fun of the game especially for competitive play because they were messy.  And that's a big thing that Colville is saying: OL5R was messy.  The storyline was haphazard and no one had a handle on the entirety it (often, I believe, including the writers), the environment rapidly shifted, playstyle swung wildly with each expansion... this was a game where nothing fit neatly and that was the point.  That was the beauty of it.

Right now we still don't know what kind of play experience FFG wants.  They've created a tightly intricate game that is a tactical Gordian knot.  They've done some impressive inroads to building community.  They've started developing an intense tournament scene.  But we still don't know what they want the end result to look like.  There are some clues, however...

The biggest clue is the Imperial Summons event.  Six dynasty packs in six weeks and a major tournament in the middle of it?  That tells us that they're trying to disrupt play.  Just as people are getting a handle on the game there's a bunch of stuff to shake things up.  There's a new legal pack between World's and the first Grand Kotei so that players can't simply replay the winning deck from World's.  There are five additional packs before the next major event which means no one's going to have a handle on the entire competitive scene.  Oh, people will analyze cards and play in their local communities and TTS but until the next Grand Kotei no one's going to know how things will really shake out.

Essentially, FFG is trying to create a game that can't be cracked, a game that is in constant flux so that a dominant strategy can't take over.

Sounds an awful lot like a game that's going to get new factions if you ask me.  An awful lot like a game begging for new victory conditions.  Oh, not right away of course, but I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that we'll see both these things in the next three years (which, recall, was OL5R's original run).

We've also seen some clues about how storyline will be developed.  We saw the top players at Gen Con vote on the story prize rather than the tournament victor deciding unilaterally.  While that suggests that FFG is trying to spread the excitement of storyline choices around, it also suggests that they're trying to limit the crazy random choices that often happened in OL5R.  It also makes single player choices, such as at World Championships, much more prestigious.

I don't know where FFG is going with their game.  It's not OL5R but it's definitely taking the lessons of OL5R and running with them.  I'm excited to see where it goes.

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Legend of the five Rings CCG was great. I got into right at the beginning of Emperor Edition and at that point it appears AEG was beginning to support it less and less. There was less story advancement and it seemed more on autopilot as AEG turned more towards developing their board games. The game was still amazing though and I fondly remember L5R nights, everyone hanging around and having a game while talking about their clan relationships and what happened in the past while playing. It was a different atmosphere than magic, noticeably so and at least for our areas was a similar size community. I really look forward to seeing how FFG continues this deep, and devoted community, and how they engage with it. Story advancement purely on player input will be exceptionally difficult. The size of the player base is massive compared to old L5R, and I think while they get things going what they have in place is fairly good. If FFG continues putting in the time and effort to this community, I think they will reap a lot of benefits for themselves, which in turn would be put back into the community.

It will be important for both parties to be invested, and I hope the atmosphere remains. From the first local open play night I think it will, seeing a lot of faces from 3 years ago when L5R ended was fun.

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This video is exactly why I have loved L5R for so long.

I am eagerly awaiting to see what FFG does with the story and community. GenCon was an awesome first step. The opening ceremony was breathtaking and brought tears to my eyes (I know, it sounds strange, getting all emotional over a card game...but it is so much more than that)

The thing I find myself missing right now is that I don't have people to sit down and discuss lore with. Our game store it's just play the game competitively and then move on to your next game. No one really wants to chat about the happenings. Great for prepping for worlds. Not so great for community building. I miss my friends out in Tucson for that. Oh man were they a bunch of lore nerds with me haha.

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On 10/16/2017 at 10:12 AM, BlindSamurai13 said:

This was just amazing. You can tell that he really cared about this experience he and his friends had with the game during that time. On another note, 31:40 on the video, so that's how the Mantis becomes a Great Clan.

Instead what I read in the 4th Ed Great Clans book, p. 146

Interesting and different. 

Here's the original:

Quote

The army of the Son of Storms returned to Otosan Uchi from its victory against Yogo Junzo’s reinforcements to find Junzo’s armies routed and crushed by the armies of the Thunders. Content with his victory, he approached Hoturi, Yakamo and Toturi with his lieutenants at his side. This time – unlike a thousand times before – Yoritomo did not kneel, only bowed.

“We have routed the reinforcements,” he told them. “And now my army stands ready.”

“Ready?” Toturi asked.

“Yes. Ready to crush your own.”

Kakita Toshimoko, standing close to Doji Hoturi, put his hand on his blade, but his Champion shook his head. “Explain yourself, Stormson.”

Yoritomo removed his helmet. “My army is ready to attack. We will fail. Destiny cannot be denied. But we are ready to attack you now and die if it is necessary.”

“To what purpose?” Toturi asked.

“To prove that we are willing to die to prove that we are worthy.” Yoritomo’s eyes gave them no hint of feint or bluff. “I will send my lieutenants back and you will kill me here for my disobedience.” He snapped his fingers and the two lieutenants retreated and he knelt with his head bowed.

Hida Yakamo’s laughter could be heard across the battlefield. “By the Fortunes, I like this man!”

Toturi nodded. “As do I. Call back your lieutenants, Son of Storms.”

“But you had better have your army pray,” Hoturi told him. “If we fail, you new status will be short-lived.”

Yoritomo replaced his helmet. “Then don’t fail.”

 

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59 minutes ago, theGricks said:

What are you raising too? You cant just say I Raise and not raise......

The raise is coming from INSIDE the quote!

11 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I already bid a gender swap or Dread Pirate Roberts ala Princess Bride treatment, do you both call or wanna raise that?

Yoritomo gains great clan status for the Mantis by ushering in a socialist utopia.

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I always liked the implication that Yoritomo's army would tip the balance against the Thunders and effectively doom Rokugan. That he was so convinced of his righteousness that he'd rather doom the entire Empire than concede that he was below anyone.

 

The Crab are dutiful and steadfast, the Crane are courteous and skilful, the Dragon are wise and mysterious, the Lion are honourable and mighty, the Phoenix are devoted and learned, the Scorpion cunning and loyal, and the Unicorn adventurous and compassionate, but the Mantis have an almighty ego.

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