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Somatose Boy

Hour of the Huntress

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4 hours ago, Soakman said:

Either way, you can say you don't like it. But it's only subjectively a problem, and I think we're all aware of that, unless FFG puts out new non-replacement player cards or brand new investigators etc that you won't eventually have access to with normal packs (or cards that render current investigators unplayable, which is pretty impossible).

This is also a subjective problem. The difference is just a matter of degree, not kind. And just to be clear, you do know that these cards are exclusive to the novella and will never appear in normal packs, right?

Speaking for myself, I bought the book. As I've said elsewhere, I would have happily done so if it were just alt-art cards (assuming the alt-art were on par with that Jenny alt-art, which is great). The money isn't really an issue for me, and whether or not I want the book is immaterial. What's distasteful is the policy shift.

I don't even think it's a slippery slope as such, so much as I question, "what does this mean about FFG policy re: promo cards?" Promo cards popping up in other Arkham Files products? Cross-promotions with other companies? Con exclusives? To date, we could be pretty sure such things weren't on the table. FFG's other co-op LCG has never done exclusive promos in 10 years, but for alt-art, and it's been a long time since a competitive LCG did. Part of the draw of the format is the lack of chase cards.

That's no longer the case. That's what I find distasteful. I'm happy for FFG to keep making cards. I'll be more and more annoyed the more difficult FFG makes them to get, even if it isn't particularly difficult for me, personally.

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1 hour ago, BD Flory said:

That doesn't have anything to do with the point of my post, which was this: If you don't care to discuss it, no one is obliging you to do so.

Instead, I see you've decided to join the the thread entirely for the purpose of petty name-calling.

So, once again: :rolleyes:

 

Yes, I dared to point out the irony of your previous post. How petty of me.

You know, I have to pay extra $35-$65 -ish just for shipping of this book right now from FFG.  But instead of crying about it, I'll wait if some shop offers it for a better total price or if not, then who cares? It's just a few cards, the world won't end. Or will it?

I did the same with the promo cards for Elder Sign and I had to even order them after buying the books.

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20 minutes ago, klaymen_sk said:

Yes, I dared to point out the irony of your previous post. How petty of me.

The irony was intentional. You seem to have missed the point, which was this: Complaints about people complaining are themselves nothing but complaints. So, why bother? If you're happy with it, or it doesn't bother you, just go buy the book (or don't, whatever suits you). If you want to talk about it, by all means, talk about it.

It's not the end of the world if someone doesn't like something. Or is it?

Edited by BD Flory

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4 hours ago, BD Flory said:

This is also a subjective problem. The difference is just a matter of degree, not kind. And just to be clear, you do know that these cards are exclusive to the novella and will never appear in normal packs, right?

Speaking for myself, I bought the book. As I've said elsewhere, I would have happily done so if it were just alt-art cards (assuming the alt-art were on par with that Jenny alt-art, which is great). The money isn't really an issue for me, and whether or not I want the book is immaterial. What's distasteful is the policy shift.

I don't even think it's a slippery slope as such, so much as I question, "what does this mean about FFG policy re: promo cards?" Promo cards popping up in other Arkham Files products? Cross-promotions with other companies? Con exclusives? To date, we could be pretty sure such things weren't on the table. FFG's other co-op LCG has never done exclusive promos in 10 years, but for alt-art, and it's been a long time since a competitive LCG did. Part of the draw of the format is the lack of chase cards.

That's no longer the case. That's what I find distasteful. I'm happy for FFG to keep making cards. I'll be more and more annoyed the more difficult FFG makes them to get, even if it isn't particularly difficult for me, personally.

Yes, I know they are only available with the novella. The cards feature the replacement keyword, which means that they will not render building a deck with Jenny's other signature cards pointless/useless/moot/impossible. They do not expand the card pool or vastly change the play experience. Unless the Investigators feature completely new deckbuilding options, these cards are not a big deal at all.

And if you can't afford the actual cards, completionist or not, you can proxy them (there are only 2 per investigator, and will likely not even be a pain to proxy). 

My 'problem' is not a subjective problem, because I don't have a problem. Would I rather them offer new neat things with other neat things rather than no neat things at all? Yes. Do I have a problem with marketing these extra cards some other way entirely? No. Go ahead. I just don't believe that is 'distasteful' and I sort of find it a weird word to use considering we could just not have replacement signature cards at all (which I guess maybe would be better for some people?). I personally would not like to see a whole pack devoted to individual alt signature cards when I don't even care to use some of the investigators. I personally like being able to pick out the investigators I LIKE, get a few neat new options for them, and hear more about their story all at once. Then I can choose to ignore the books/cards for investigators I don't care about.

I personally am excited to see what they are and have more build diversity options regardless of whether I need to proxy them. Depending on the quality of the book, I may just do that with future ones. 

Edited by Soakman

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On 14/10/2017 at 4:16 PM, Dice lord said:

I like this; good on ffg for trying something different. If your brain itches for not 'having a complete set' that's your hang up. If you don't want the book donate it to a library.

I just hope they aren't limiting the cards to the first printing and that the cards are not print on demand quality as they do look different to regular cards.

I know it's my hangup but that doesn't stop being being disappointed at the direction of the product. 

Similarly I dint care about print on demand quality as I sleeve, but from above, that's something that bothers you.  We're all different in what we do our don't like and it should be okay to state that. 

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Actually as I read down this thread the discussion/argument will go nowhere as some posts are not respecting others opinions if they don't agree with them or it doesn't affect them.

I'm done with this thread. No desire to argue.

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I am interested in the book.  I am also interested in the cards.

I will remind people that this game blurs the lines between an RPG and a CCG.  As a blur, we are getting new mechanics (cards) with in character fiction/world building (the fiction).  I can point to huge quantities of RPGs that do this in their expansions.  Some people love the fluff, some people love the crunch so they mix them together and everyone gets a little something they want.

All in all, I like this idea/model.  I do want to see the quality of the writing and I hope they do justice to Jenny.

 

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1 hour ago, Soakman said:

Yes, I know they are only available with the novella. The cards feature the replacement keyword, which means that they will not render building a deck with Jenny's other signature cards pointless/useless/moot/impossible. They do not expand the card pool or vastly change the play experience.

They exactly expand the cardpool. This is literally their purpose. And every set of cards subsequently released in this fashion expands the card pool further, just as any player card released does. That that they do not expand it greatly, I do not debate, but the effect will accumulate as more books are released. More and more investigators will have builds only available to those who have purchased these books.

We've seen Roland's replacements now, as well, and I think there's an easy argument to be made that simply adding them to Roland's extant signature cards (as is your option, per the replacement rules) is a strict improvement on Roland, as both of his replacement sig cards add clues to his location. This both makes cover up easier to resolve and improves the utility of his signature firearm. Or you can simply make the swap and remove one of the most complained about weaknesses in the game from your deck. I'm not going to post them here, as they're no officially spoiled, but you can find them over on in the Hour of the Huntress thread.

You can make a similar argument for Jenny, though it's somewhat weaker. Trading away her guns to avoid the possibility of mental trauma from Izzie is a nice option; or you can invest in her asset to open a wide variety of deckbuilding options no normally available due to xp limitations. Compared to other cards available in the game, it is also a relatively expensive and relatively exclusive option on a per card basis, in the sense of tangible goods, given the cost and that we don't yet know how or if these books will be distributed, or how deep the stock is or the how extensive the reprint plan.

1 hour ago, Soakman said:

My 'problem' is not a subjective problem, because I don't have a problem.

You claimed complaints here were only a subjective problem, unless a certain circumstance were met. That was the alternative you proposed that met that bar. Which again, is only a difference of degree, not kind -- in either case, they would be player cards that expand the card pool to varying degrees, and are available only through means other than products for the game line itself. Whether it is an investigator, replacement signature cards, or the most generic of neutral cards that could go in any deck. Or 10, or 20 of such cards, these are things that are no different from this release except by dint of how many cards are being released and at what price point.

In any case, one could say the same if FFG were to release, say, an Arkham Nights exclusive investigator. Or an Essen exclusive deluxe expansion called The Essen Horror, or whatever. It is still merely a difference in kind. It that in that case, the price point is the cost of travel and attendance plus product. I don't think anyone would be shocked if people were to complain about such a release.

This too, would be a subjective issue. That doesn't somehow mean complaints about the choice of distribution method are invalid. It's just that different people draw the line at different places.

On the other hand, if there were no mechanically distinct promos, this wouldn't be an issue at all, in terms of gameplay. Everyone could easily get -- and be confident they could easily get -- all options available for the game. Which is, for many, exactly the appeal and promise of the LCG format.

Oh, and I'm reminded of the other issues with such promo cards: They tend to bring out the ugliest in discussions on all sides of the issue. As we've seen here.

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I don't think I've said anything ugly, and you may call my opinion subjective (it is, as are all opinions), but I don't have a problem. I'll take new cards any way I get them. I personally like the option of NOT having to pay for investigators I don't care about.

Additionally, the novellas are a completely new 'item' and feature characters from the game and focus on their backstory. You could arguably say that these are just a new kind of 'Investigator Expansion' for the LCG with extensive lore and in depth information on a particular investigator. As pointed out above, the LCG is intended to be extremely thematically and story driven, and I'm fine with an in-depth look at an investigator being part of the ticket price.  

Whether it's worth the pricepoint to a player is always up for debate no matter what 'expansion' or IP related product you're talking about. These are not being marketed as 'promo' cards. They are being marketed as "if you buy this novella, it comes with these cards" and (so long as you aren't getting it used) will always come with these cards.

It's not an exclusive thing that is only available to a few players or people who pre-order or go to an event, if the marketing so far has been accurate, there's nothing limiting the availability of these cards except a person's willingness to buy a book with it. That's not a problem in my opinion. The book is stand-alone content and is not like a promo coming with an expansion for a different game or something. You can use both things. I have more sympathy for the person who wants to read the book but doesn't play the game because the cards are useless by themselves, whereas the book is not.

Edited by Soakman

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Shipping is going to cost more than twice as much as the book itself for me. Hopefully it will be more readily available over here somehow. What i find interesting is the possibility that the investigators signature cards can be changed. But with only 1 investigators per book, will they publish 1 for each investigators so they all have the option?

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1 hour ago, Soakman said:

I don't think I've said anything ugly, and you may call my opinion subjective (it is, as are all opinions), but I don't have a problem. I'll take new cards any way I get them. I personally like the option of NOT having to pay for investigators I don't care about.

Here's an experiment for you. Next time you disagree with someone's complaint about something -- movie tickets cost too much, their favorite item isn't in stock at wherever, take your pick -- in real life and face to face, tell them how their issue is only subjective, or how it's only a problem for them. See how that conversation goes.

Yes, it's subjective. Everyone knows this. Don't be that guy. Some people have the luxury of not caring about the additional expense, or compensating easily. Some people have very good reason to care. Personally, I can afford it, even if I think the price for a couple of cards and some game company published fiction is a bit exorbitant. Others may not have that luxury. Still others (as I believe has been mentioned in this thread) pay a high price for shipping and/or distribution in other territories that's more easily absorbed when many cards are purchased in a single package.

1 hour ago, Soakman said:

It's not an exclusive thing that is only available to a few players or people who pre-order or go to an event, if the marketing so far has been accurate, there's nothing limiting the availability of these cards except a person's willingness to buy a book with it. That's not a problem in my opinion. The book is stand-alone content and is not like a promo coming with an expansion for a different game or something. You can use both things. I have more sympathy for the person who wants to read the book but doesn't play the game because the cards are useless by themselves, whereas the book is not.

You could also use an expansion for another game. You could enjoy traveling to a con. The only difference is the price, and whether you're interested in the specific product or service with which the cards are being offered. Just because FFG isn't calling it a promo card doesn't make it not a promo. This sort of promotion is exactly the kind of thing companies used to promote fiction lines and so on in the heyday of ccgs, up to and including Wizards of the Coast with magic. Just because the name has been changed to something more marketable doesn't make it essentially different.

Also, the book is readily available for $4 as an ebook for people who don't care about the cards. People who want only the cards have no ability to cover the cost of the cards (even a reasonable retail cost) to order them without the book. So your sympathy is misplaced -- people who only want to read the story have exactly that option. People who only want the cards do not have the option to purchase them from FFG, and may or may not be able to get them from the secondary market (especially since, as noted, people who only want to buy the story can do so).

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So just to make sure, everybody is fine with there being no new option at all, but the idea of voluntarily making that choice yourself is distasteful? Because you can actually do that, you know. You can choose to play the game just like they'd never done this. If your mental hangups won't let you do that, it's really on you.

Was it nice that it was just alt art? I suppose, but I'm not sure why exploiting the art completionists is somehow better than exploiting the gameplay completionists. I happen to love collecting the alt arts, and many of those are FAR harder to come by than these are. Why should gameplay options be off limits in a way that art options aren't?

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2 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Was it nice that it was just alt art? I suppose, but I'm not sure why exploiting the art completionists is somehow better than exploiting the gameplay completionists. I happen to love collecting the alt arts, and many of those are FAR harder to come by than these are. Why should gameplay options be off limits in a way that art options aren't?

Because the product is a card game. Its essential function and sine qua non is gameplay. Madness, I know.

Aside from that, there are many, many ways such cards could be done that wouldn't have required the purchase of a $15 book for 4 cards.

1) A code distributed with the fiction pdf. Even if you have to knock the price up a buck or two, it's a substantially better deal. If the market will bear the hardcover, you can even offer that as well.

2) A pack of alt sig cards (with alt arts even!) for all the investigators at once. 53 cards, all-in, for the existing investigators to date. Throw in 6 role cards for Lola, and you've got 59 cards, just 1 shy of a standard mythos pack. Maybe leave out a neutral role for Lola and do alt-art Yog and Hastur to make it an even 60 if that's necessary for some printer break. Print it as the 6th (or 1st, whatever) pack of a cycle, if you need to, and vary campaign length a little. Sell it for $15 -- the same price as the book -- and you get fifteen times the game content. Do it again in a few cycles, or rely on a deeper existing card pool to allow you to include alternatives in the same deluxe box in which gators are introduced going forward.

3) Include alternative sig cards in a self-contained campaign deluxe, parallel to the main line, a la the Saga boxes for LotR. 5 (or 6) gators in each box until caught up. Groups that share encounter cards can also share investigator cards, since no one can play the same investigator at the same time.

That's just low-hanging fruit. The whole, "this is the only way we could've gotten these cards!" is a non-starter. This is how FFG chose to do it. Not how they had to do it.

 

Edited by BD Flory

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Gameplay is great, but I wouldn't be playing this game to be completely honest if the characters and theme didn't interest me. I find that this packaging makes complete sense. The book is about the investigator. There's a cool bonus with the book to let you play your favorite investigator in a slightly different way (you don't HAVE to buy all the books, just your favorites... this is great!) You are paying for the book because, well, someone wrote it. You don't get free novellas online at no cost and then a thing sold separately. People need paid for the work they do, and the book, as well as the cards, are a product. The price point is not the problem, the worst part, is the shipping.

I'm fine to agree to disagree. And I do want to point out that while I did not know there was a eBook version of the book, some readers really prefer actual books over eBooks. Especially anything has art inside, which it looks like this might, and if it doesn't it has a nice cover. 

Option 2 of your last post would again be worse in my opinion because a) I don't want a shorter campaign, b) I don't use every investigator. Just as I don't want to purchase extra mythos packs for 2nd copies of player cards and be stuck with a billion cards I won't use (thankfully they include 2 copies of the player cards in each mythos pack), I don't want to buy a pack of investigator alternate signature cards that I won't use. If you're curious, I did not buy 2 cores because I do not want all of the extra encounter sets bogging down my collection. And I'm fine with that (though the lack of 2 copies of some mystic cards makes them very unreliable imo). 

Nobody said this was the only way to include alt sig cards. I just personally PREFER this over the suggestions you are offering. I happen to see the two items as being extremely related and enjoy reading, and thereby I personally (and subjectively) don't see that this is a problem at all. I understand why you don't want it this way, but I think it makes sense to be honest. 

I'm out. I just wanted to bring up the point I have made, which I have. Enjoy!

Edited by Soakman

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2 minutes ago, Mixxathon said:

I approve! Pre-ordered.

Whatever can get us to sit down, relax and pick up a book to read gets full scores from me.

The world seems to think book are 'old' but in truth, there are very few other pastimes that are be more rewarding.

Also - books makes us smarter - even the Mad Arab knew that.

Yes.. SO much this. 

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4 hours ago, BD Flory said:

Because the product is a card game. Its essential function and sine qua non is gameplay. Madness, I know.

Aside from that, there are many, many ways such cards could be done that wouldn't have required the purchase of a $15 book for 4 cards.

Sure, it's a card game. Of which every possible component includes extensive and very thematic art. Separating a gameplay element from an artistic element is entirely at your personal preference, it's not intrinsic to the game.

And if course there are other ways they could have done it. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise, even a little bit? It's a marketing tool. It's downright universal. And again, as marketing promotions go for FFG it's one of the most customer-friendly ways they could do it. Compared to the Arkham Nights or GenCon promos, they basically are just giving them away.

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I am reading the story now and it actually is well written and thought out.  As someone else mentioned above, the RPG angle of this game is something I am glad that they are exploring/expanding.  For international (non USA) gamers the shipping is stupidly expensive.  There is no getting around that.  

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28 minutes ago, Somatose Boy said:

There are several full color pages in the back of the book that have art and so forth.

Several full color glossy pages at the back.

The cards are the same quality as normal non-print-on-demand quality.

I think her weakness automatically replaces Searching for Izzy for me.  That weakness has nearly killed me several times.  I'm just not sure if I can bring myself to do it - her classic, signature weakness is just so **** thematic!

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