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emeraldbeacon

What's the scope of "This Attack?"

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Disclaimer:  this is some high-level devil's advocate rules lawyering.  I'm not suggesting that this is the way the game should be played... merely considering rules-as-written and how they actually apply to certain cards.

When a card uses the term "this attack," what is the full scope of that phrase?  Is it the ENTIRE attack timing chart, or only select steps (steps 2-7, for example)?  The reason I bring it up:  Accuracy Corrector states that, after using its ability, "...your dice cannot be modified again during this attack."  If the scope of "this attack" ends after the first shot of a double-shot weapon like Twin Laser Turret or Cluster Missiles, the Accuracy Corrector would work as normal on the second shot - a reasonable interpretation.

BUT, if it includes the entire timing chart, everything can go haywire.  It means that, for any other upcoming dice rolls caused by that run through the attack chart, NO MODIFICATIONS can be made on ANY of your dice.  Need to make that second Cluster Missiles shot?  You're rolling naked dice.  Maybe you have Gunner on board?  Hope for hits-n-crits.  And if you're shooting at Dengar or Quickdraw, well, I hope you trust your green dice more than I trust mine.

Your opinions?

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Interesting question!

Looking at Miranda's entry in the FAQ:

If Miranda performs an attack using a secondary weapon that says “perform this attack twice,” she may use her ability on the first attack or the second attack. (Emphasis mine).

This shows that TLT & Cluster Missiles are considered to be 2 separate attacks, with AC reading, as you said, "...your dice cannot be modified again during this attack." (Emphasis mine). Had AC said something along the lines of "...your attack dice cannot be modified again during this phase," that would be an instance in where AC would prevent any second attacks or retaliatory attacks from being modified.

As it stands, AC has no impact on the 2nd attack from TLT, Cluster Missiles, or retaliatory attacks.

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You are the attacker while you are performing an attack. RR P5

"The ship that is performing an attack is the attacker."

The most up to date definition of the scope of 'an Attack' is in the FAQ timing chart. You are performing an attack from the start of step 1 to the end of step 10.

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20 hours ago, McLaine said:

The most up to date definition of the scope of 'an Attack' is in the FAQ timing chart. You are performing an attack from the start of step 1 to the end of step 10.

The only problem with this interpretation is that the term "attack" is used to describe several different effects.  Let's consider a Y-Wing equipped with Title and Twin Laser Turret, firing at Dengar (who has initiative)...

  1. The Entire Timing Chart:  In this case, the ship's entire activation could be considered to be an "attack" (After all, it's called "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack").  But that means that both the original Y-Wing primary attack, and Dengar's counter attack, AND the final TLT attack are all just one attack.  This flies in the face of cards like R3-A2.
  2. Each Complete Weapon Attack (including weapons that attack twice):  In the above example, you would have three "attacks"... Y-Wing Primary, Dengar counter, and the TLT shots.  This is the rationale for cards like Gunner (where both TLT shots have to miss to trigger its ability) and Tactician (where only one stress can be dealt).
  3. Each individual Weapon Shot:  This means that four individual "attacks" would happen:  Y-Wing Primary, Dengar revenge, TLT shot #1, and TLT shot #2.  This is the method that most people agree is how Accuracy Corrector works.

But what's the specific answer?  Help us, FFG, you're our only hope!

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An attack, as defined in the rulebook, is steps 1-7. And when you check the Timing Chart, after step 7 you check to see if you have another attack to perform (TLT, Cluster Missiles) as part of your original attack. If you do, you start at step 2 and progress through to step 7 again. If you don't have another attack, you progress to steps 8 and 9 to see if you are eligible for a "new" attack.

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8 hours ago, Parravon said:

An attack, as defined in the rulebook, is steps 1-7. And when you check the Timing Chart, after step 7 you check to see if you have another attack to perform (TLT, Cluster Missiles) as part of your original attack. If you do, you start at step 2 and progress through to step 7 again. If you don't have another attack, you progress to steps 8 and 9 to see if you are eligible for a "new" attack.

Under those criteria, if one were to use accuracy corrector on the first volley of an "attack twice" weapon, you would not be able to modify the second volley at all... which is an interesting thing to consider!

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So the Ghost with AC and TLT could get one shot that uses AC, then one unmodified, then another with AC (possibly different target) and last TLT shot unmodified.  Or not use AC because you don’t have Autoblaster Turret.

it gets complicated.

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8 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Under those criteria, if one were to use accuracy corrector on the first volley of an "attack twice" weapon, you would not be able to modify the second volley at all... which is an interesting thing to consider!

Why? Accuracy Corrector isn't restricted in how many times it can be used a round, and since you're in a new "Modify Attack Dice" step you don't fall afoul of the once per opportunity rule.

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I see what they're on about.  If the "this attack" lasts into the 2nd attack of an "attack twice" weapon (that is, past step 7 in the flowchart), the "you cannot modify your dice again this attack" drawback of using Accuracy Corrector could still be in effect.  Personally, I think the decision after step 7 which would send you into either step 8 or a new step 2 signals the end of the specific attack.  You don't go back to step 1, so you don't trigger effects which happen in step 1, but it's not still "this attack."

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On 10/16/2017 at 8:59 AM, DR4CO said:

Why? Accuracy Corrector isn't restricted in how many times it can be used a round, and since you're in a new "Modify Attack Dice" step you don't fall afoul of the once per opportunity rule.

I am not sure I understand the logic behind this. You might be in a "new" Modify Attack Dice step, but with the new FAQ you are still in the same attack when you roll for the second time. If indeed you are able to use the AC effect when you roll dice again as part of the same attack, then what prevents you from using a target lock after you use the accuracy corrector in the first time you perform this attack?

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42 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

I am not sure I understand the logic behind this. You might be in a "new" Modify Attack Dice step, but with the new FAQ you are still in the same attack when you roll for the second time. If indeed you are able to use the AC effect when you roll dice again as part of the same attack, then what prevents you from using a target lock after you use the accuracy corrector in the first time you perform this attack?

That TLTs are one attack is a common misconception. More accurate is to say that they're two attacks performed back-to-back. Anything that affects one doesn't carry over to the other, including the restriction from AC. Otherwise abilities like Miranda or Latts would apply to both shots, which they most definitely do not.

Edited by DR4CO

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I never said that TLT is one attack. The wording on the TLT card makes it pretty clear IMO that both attacks are part of the same attack. The second clause on the TLT " Each time this attack hits, " makes it so I believe. If not the wording should have been "When one of the attacks hits". What needs clarification in this case is whether the wording "this attack" on Accuracy Corrector refers to each sub attacks separately or the TLT attack as a whole. In other words, does it trigger between steps 2-7 or after that.  Miranda is once per round, which makes it impossible to do it twice even if she had a way to attack twice other than TLT. Latts ability and FAQ clearly contradict the flow chart, since he is triggered at step one and the TLT attacks happen at steps 2-7; unless I got it wrong and you declare the TLT target separately for each of the attacks.

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