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Who else is quitting? Speak Up!

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Personally (speaking from my years of watching people come and go from more than 7 LCG's), if this is all took for you to quit the game, you would have quit the game before the first year was over. I have been playing enough of these games for long enough now to spot "casual interest". There is nothing wrong with casual interest for a game, but don't pretend otherwise. The nature of LCG's will eventually drive away everybody that can't deal with a lifestyle game in the long run. All that this announcement did was accelerate that process. 

This announcement is good for the game and makes sense. For the competitive players, it's great! For the casual players (aka, kitchen table players) it makes no difference; just buy what you want, whenever you want to. 

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46 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

*does quick bad math*

deluxe box introduces 50-60 new cards, that's three packs. deluxe box is 30 dollars, so all six would be about 60 dollars.

I'm just basing this off of one deluxe box from netrunner though.

That isn't an unreasonable comparison, assuming the $30 was MSRP.  The cost to print netrunner should be the same as the cost to print L5R.  However, packaging is surprisingly costly, and while I don't have direct experience, It was my understanding that increasing the size of your box can become a lot more expensive.  That being said, its not like there is a ton of wasted space in the various FFG boxes.  I think the main reason for that is to keep boxes reasonably uniform for store shelves?

And again, I think there is an aspect of marketing to the casual player here that we competitive players don't really like, but makes sense from a monetary standpoint.  Lets assume they are looking at selling all 120 cards (360 total) for $60.  Casual Player Bob is walking through the store and sees this expansion, picks it up and looks at the price tag.  "This expansion costs more than what I paid for the original game.  No thanks!".  Now, Casual Player Bob sees 6 expansions, is impressed "Hey there are six expansions for this game, it must be good!"  and picks one up, looking at it and going "Oh this is only $15, I can pick one of these up" or even "I can pick two of these up!".  $15 is an easier impulse buy than $60.  $60 is what you buy after some consideration.  Assuming Casual Player Bob continues to like the game, he will continue occasionally buying expansions, giving both the store and FFG more money total.  Casual Player Bob doesn't really care about competitive play.  Casual Player Bob probably doesn't even know what is in each pack, but Casual Player Bob now probably given the store at least half of the money they would have got from a single box, which they would not have gotten originally.

To be fair, maybe casual bob looks at said expansion and goes "Only 20 cards for $15?  No thanks!"  But I'm assuming FFG has done their market research at this point.  I know I've looked at the 7 wonders expansion, and it was something like 3 new wonders for $15, and definitely put it back down.

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4 minutes ago, Mirith said:

That isn't an unreasonable comparison, assuming the $30 was MSRP.  The cost to print netrunner should be the same as the cost to print L5R.  However, packaging is surprisingly costly, and while I don't have direct experience, It was my understanding that increasing the size of your box can become a lot more expensive.  That being said, its not like there is a ton of wasted space in the various FFG boxes.  I think the main reason for that is to keep boxes reasonably uniform for store shelves?

And again, I think there is an aspect of marketing to the casual player here that we competitive players don't really like, but makes sense from a monetary standpoint.  Lets assume they are looking at selling all 120 cards (360 total) for $60.  Casual Player Bob is walking through the store and sees this expansion, picks it up and looks at the price tag.  "This expansion costs more than what I paid for the original game.  No thanks!".  Now, Casual Player Bob sees 6 expansions, is impressed "Hey there are six expansions for this game, it must be good!"  and picks one up, looking at it and going "Oh this is only $15, I can pick one of these up" or even "I can pick two of these up!".  $15 is an easier impulse buy than $60.  $60 is what you buy after some consideration.  Assuming Casual Player Bob continues to like the game, he will continue occasionally buying expansions, giving both the store and FFG more money total.  Casual Player Bob doesn't really care about competitive play.  Casual Player Bob probably doesn't even know what is in each pack, but Casual Player Bob now probably given the store at least half of the money they would have got from a single box, which they would not have gotten originally.

To be fair, maybe casual bob looks at said expansion and goes "Only 20 cards for $15?  No thanks!"  But I'm assuming FFG has done their market research at this point.  I know I've looked at the 7 wonders expansion, and it was something like 3 new wonders for $15, and definitely put it back down.

60 bucks is a harder sell than 15, and 60 dollars on a casual may only use a small part of the box is even worse.

It feels cheaper to spend 15 for only a handful of cards in each expansion, even though it isn't.

Market psychology at work.

Edited by RandomJC

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I think the problem some people have is legitimate. It feels to them like they had a plan, they fit L5R into their budget for games, and now FFG is changing things around on short notice.

No reason to belittle or mock. 

That they're revealing all this so late is a bit crappy. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise. I'm happy to have more cards to play with because many themes are very weak for every clan right now, but it wasn't handled the best.

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On 10/14/2017 at 2:57 PM, TylerTT said:

I think it's reasonable to assume They would not change things if they felt the old way was better. They changed it so they must think this way is at least potentially better.

FFG has new management that took over some time around this summer. 

FFG generally developes games years ahead of release so they may have developed and printed everything to function as a normal pack cycle and then made this choice recently.

 

 

The logistics of printing and shipping from China mean this was not a decision made recently. To get all the expansion in stores across 6 weeks means this was slotted into the factories queue 9-12 months ago. 

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2 minutes ago, feydruatha said:

The logistics of printing and shipping from China mean this was not a decision made recently. To get all the expansion in stores across 6 weeks means this was slotted into the factories queue 9-12 months ago. 

This doesn't mean they planned to release these in 6 weeks 9-12 months ago. Since they were planning on starting in Nov. and since the entire cycle is designed as a group, even on a monthly release they'd have sent these all to the printer at the same time.

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1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

This doesn't mean they planned to release these in 6 weeks 9-12 months ago. Since they were planning on starting in Nov. and since the entire cycle is designed as a group, even on a monthly release they'd have sent these all to the printer at the same time.

Maybe, but they would not have had to schedule them to ship back to the US at nearly the same time, and that would have had to been scheduled in that same time period. 

With other LCG's each expansion is on a different boat, with the 6p6w format, they all would have had to been on the same boat. 


I think you underestimate the lead times required for international manufacturing and shipping. 

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5 minutes ago, Tebbo said:

I think the problem some people have is legitimate. It feels to them like they had a plan, they fit L5R into their budget for games, and now FFG is changing things around on short notice.

No reason to belittle or mock. 

That they're revealing all this so late is a bit crappy. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise. I'm happy to have more cards to play with because many themes are very weak for every clan right now, but it wasn't handled the best.

I can. And have.

Truth be told, I don't believe the problem people has is legitimate, even from the idea of having a plan, since nothing is being forced on them to buy these immeadiately. Every complaint I've seen is based on the "buying 6 in 6 weeks". No one has to do that, the game isn't unplayable if you don't buy them all right away, and even on a competitive level the game isn't unplayable. It's an over reaction based on, I believe, a childishness need for immediate gratification. People can wait to get everything if they really need to.

 

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Just now, feydruatha said:

Maybe, but they would not have had to schedule them to ship back to the US at nearly the same time, and that would have had to been scheduled in that same time period. 

With other LCG's each expansion is on a different boat, with the 6p6w format, they all would have had to been on the same boat. 


I think you underestimate the lead times required for international manufacturing and shipping. 

(Or are on the same boat, according to the website)

Where in my comment did I even make claims to estimate the lead times for shipping? or manufacturing? I said that everything is done at the same time, and it is. Especially if they're looking to launch this game with a big wave, which has been pretty obvious this entire year that they have.

So, follow with me here, the logic is a bit complicated. They design the cycle all at once, Then, the entire cycle is sent to the printers at the same time. Finally, it's all shipped at the same time. Why would they do this even if they were planning on releasing monthly?

Well, if you're trying to create a large wave of interest and keep it stable, and you've had major problems with securing product from overseas shipping in the past, you'd make sure you'd have all of it sent to you, instead of the usual piecemeal.

But you know...FFG wanting to make sure the new product they spent a lot of money on doing well, and kept alive in the early stages of LCGs where they are the weakest is clearly a sign of BS and trickery.

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13 hours ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

people realize online gameplay will still be 100% free, right?

cost should not be a barrier.

A meta that is evolving too swiftly? Maybe...but the cost thing is just a red herring.

In fairness, it's kind of tough to show up at your local game store and play people with physical cards using your laptop.

 

To all those who feel that FFG has somehow betrayed them, I'm sure FFG's response would be:

32b4229145de0a2c1171b9b5757f25dfaa1bbf7b

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I used to spend $300 per L5R expansion, then went to MTG and spent $500-$1000 per year +a thousand pieces of jank cards ill never use. If I broke the box with my friends Id spend about $80 for an 2-3 complete set clans with no unused cards and all the options, that sounds like a sweat deal to me, if they released all the options to play with in 6 weeks, I am down with that too.

Besides I don't think I'll be buying all the expansions, ill just check the ones I can use.

Anyways if it all goes downhill, at least I didn't break the bank this time, but I like the game so far.

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When you remove hyperbole most of these posts which are frustrated are people who are disappointed FFG wasn't clear with their plans for releasing product.

Some are outrageous but it's all ultimately about a lack of communication. 

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2 minutes ago, jowisu said:

I used to spend $300 per L5R expansion, then went to MTG and spent $500-$1000 per year +a thousand pieces of jank cards ill never use. If I broke the box with my friends Id spend about $80 for an 2-3 complete set clans with no unused cards and all the options, that sounds like a sweat deal to me, if they released all the options to play with in 6 weeks, I am down with that too.

Besides I don't think I'll be buying all the expansions, ill just check the ones I can use.

Anyways if it all goes downhill, at least I didn't break the bank this time, but I like the game so far.

That's what everybody in here keeps forgetting. besides you're not forced to buy any of these packs, but if you decide to you know the fixed cost of getting ALL cards in advance. Maybe bad communication but the hissy fits and over the top sobbing is just not helping anyone.

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3 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

(Or are on the same boat, according to the website)

Where in my comment did I even make claims to estimate the lead times for shipping? or manufacturing? I said that everything is done at the same time, and it is. Especially if they're looking to launch this game with a big wave, which has been pretty obvious this entire year that they have.

So, follow with me here, the logic is a bit complicated. They design the cycle all at once, Then, the entire cycle is sent to the printers at the same time. Finally, it's all shipped at the same time. Why would they do this even if they were planning on releasing monthly?

Well, if you're trying to create a large wave of interest and keep it stable, and you've had major problems with securing product from overseas shipping in the past, you'd make sure you'd have all of it sent to you, instead of the usual piecemeal.

But you know...FFG wanting to make sure the new product they spent a lot of money on doing well, and kept alive in the early stages of LCGs where they are the weakest is clearly a sign of BS and trickery.

When they do the standard LCG expansion releases they are not all on the boat at the same time, that is what short-circuits the argument that this was a decision made over the summer.

It all goes to the printers at the same time, yes, but the timeline for the actual work order fulfillment is different. To get it all manufactured and shipped to the US to hit the 6p6W format requires more than people making a decision over the summer.  

The product does not get manufactured to sit around at the factory before it is shipped. it is only made just before it is shipped, and to lock in the manufacturing windows at a factory like FFG used takes a 9-12 month turn around. 

We seem to agree, but you are being disagreeable. I was only attempting to quash the clearly wrong assumption that some people seem to be making that this was a decision from FFG with no thought and in a short time window. that is not how international manufacturing works.  

In my opinion releasing imperial like this is the best possible thing for the long-term success of the game. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lancezh said:

That's what everybody in here keeps forgetting. besides you're not forced to buy any of these packs, but if you decide to you know the fixed cost of getting ALL cards in advance. Maybe bad communication but the hissy fits and over the top sobbing is just not helping anyone.

I'd like to add from personal experience that I had to wait a year and a half during emperor just to make Law of Darkness Dojo work, and it was the stronghold I REALLY wanted to play, I had to play military Samurai/Yojimbo for a year just to win games as Scorp. 

So for me it was either play the Samurai/Yojimbo/perfectmoment play style just to play a clan competitively or switch to Unicorn or Crab. Yeah, this is def a step up L5 wise

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3 minutes ago, jowisu said:

I'd like to add from personal experience that I had to wait a year and a half during emperor just to make Law of Darkness Dojo work, and it was the stronghold I REALLY wanted to play, I had to play military Samurai/Yojimbo for a year just to win games as Scorp. 

So for me it was either play the Samurai/Yojimbo/perfectmoment play style just to play a clan competitively or switch to Unicorn or Crab. Yeah, this is def a step up L5 wise

Did it ever work?  I tried to make it work, because it was a really cool deck idea but it fell flat :(

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Yeah when you had to wait for your clan theme or playstyle to have enough support to really play it sucked.

Then they tried the opposite by sorta shotgunning the themes at the start, which is what FFG kinda did here, and that also sucked because you still didn't have enough in the beginning for a specific theme.

If you were a military Scorpion or Crane player right now you're just waiting for card previews and crossing your fingers.

Edited by Tebbo

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5 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Did it ever work?  I tried to make it work, because it was a really cool deck idea but it fell flat :(

The only dishonor deck that can beat shadowlands with the stronghold that let you do -1 less dishonor per loss. It was competitive, but I never got to top Kotei haha, but that's probably cause I suck.

It was cool though, you can make a guy lose 5 honor, cant remember the card name, but the effects were to make a guy lose 2 honor and another honor if performed by courtier, ruling states both effects activate separately and LDD made you lose extra 2 hehee.


Edit: for the record, i did top a few tourneys with it. The switch mechanic was sweet, going up against military? dishonor bomb! Going against Honor runners? Military them.

Edited by jowisu

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On 10/11/2017 at 4:28 PM, Kaiju said:

Sure, I d be happy to be proven wrong. Unfortunately, the last few games (Warhammer Quest, Star Wars LCG, Conquest) I was right. Not that I could have guessed ahead of time WHY exactly it didnt work out (except for Star Wars, which was kinda obvious), but the playerbase for these games is limited, there are several systems further dividing the shrinking playerbase (because I can tell you, the younger generation doesnt have NEARLY as many gamers as the current late-20s to late-30s have), and then FFG goes and on top of drastically increasing prices puts a massive investment up front into play - I dont see how this can be anything but horribly bad.

Again, not everyone will quit, and again, new people will trickle in. But I have run a gamestore a few years back for several years, right around the time LCGs were invented, and I can guarantee you, after about 2 cycles (Warhammer Invasion back then, and later the LotR) people dont pick it up, you are just selling to those that have been there from the beginning.

Netrunner, they are doing it smart there, building a fresh entry point. I hope FFG sees the numbers after this stunt, and reconsiders for L5R. Its a great game.

Conquest fell out due to IP and contracts with GW. 

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38 minutes ago, feydruatha said:

When they do the standard LCG expansion releases they are not all on the boat at the same time, that is what short-circuits the argument that this was a decision made over the summer.

It all goes to the printers at the same time, yes, but the timeline for the actual work order fulfillment is different. To get it all manufactured and shipped to the US to hit the 6p6W format requires more than people making a decision over the summer.  

The product does not get manufactured to sit around at the factory before it is shipped. it is only made just before it is shipped, and to lock in the manufacturing windows at a factory like FFG used takes a 9-12 month turn around. 

We seem to agree, but you are being disagreeable. I was only attempting to quash the clearly wrong assumption that some people seem to be making that this was a decision from FFG with no thought and in a short time window. that is not how international manufacturing works.  

In my opinion releasing imperial like this is the best possible thing for the long-term success of the game. 

 

This is factually incorrect information.

FFG prints and ships a full LCG cycle all at once from overseas. They then warehouse the packs and send them for local distribution at whatever interval they like.

They do not ship a cycle over piecemeal as you are asserting.

This is a process that FFG has openly talked about in regards to other LCGs. This is not speculation, it is direct from FFG.

The upcoming product section on this website should not be taken literally as it has never been meant to accurately depict where a product is in the process, only to give a general timeline.

When they have some packs from the same cycle  marked as "released" or "now shipping" and other as "on the boat", those on the boat packs are being warehoused by FFG and arrived with everything else. 100% confirmed by FFG.

So given that all the packs need to be printed and shipped over to start releasing on even a month to month schedule it is completely possible for FFG to have pivoted in short order on the interval between releases. As the interval would have no impact on manufacture and shipping within the same cycle.

Edited by ScottieATF

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1 minute ago, ScottieATF said:

This is factually incorrect I formation.

FFG prints and ships a full LCG cycle all at once from overseas. They then warehouse the packs and send them for local distribution at whatever interval they like.

They do not ship a cycle over piecemeal as you are asserting.

This is a process that FFG has openly talked about in regards to other LCGs. This is not speculation, it is direct from FFG.

The upcoming product section on this website should not be taken literally as it has never been meant to accurately depict where a product is in the process, only to give a general timeline.

When they have some packs from the same cycle  marked as "released" or "now shipping" and other as "on the boat", those on the boat packs are being warehoused by FFG and arrived with everything else. 100% confirmed by FFG.

So given that all the packs need to be printed and shipped over to start releasing on even a month to month schedule it is completely possible for FFG to have pivoted in short order on the interval between releases. As the interval would have no impact on manufacture and shipping within the same cycle.

Then explain to me why they missed dates for individual packs when the Port of Los Angeles was on strike?

By your logic, they should have all been delivered and in the warehouse for distribution, and that should not have interfered. Instead, it was blamed directly for the missed dates. 

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1 minute ago, feydruatha said:

Then explain to me why they missed dates for individual packs when the Port of Los Angeles was on strike?

By your logic, they should have all been delivered and in the warehouse for distribution, and that should not have interfered. Instead, it was blamed directly for the missed dates. 

I don't have to explain anything. I'm relaying to you information that FFG has shared on numerous occasions with other LCG communities in the past.

As I said this isn't speculation this is 100% FFGs own description of how cycles are printed and shipped. You can go ask around if you like, but unless you think FFG was lying in those conversations that is their process for the manufacture and shipping of chapter pack style release

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6 minutes ago, feydruatha said:

Then explain to me why they missed dates for individual packs when the Port of Los Angeles was on strike?

By your logic, they should have all been delivered and in the warehouse for distribution, and that should not have interfered. Instead, it was blamed directly for the missed dates. 

Ask FFG.

You're the one who is not accepting the logical answer for the favor of a conspiracy theory that serves no purpose than to fulfill an already held negative belief. My business is distribution, and storage, so I'm going to favor my own experience and knowledge over someone who rather live in their fantasy of how things work.

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