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Shizrak

Who else is quitting? Speak Up!

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9 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Ask FFG.

You're the one who is not accepting the logical answer for the favor of a conspiracy theory that serves no purpose than to fulfill an already held negative belief. My business is distribution, and storage, so I'm going to favor my own experience and knowledge over someone who rather live in their fantasy of how things work.

See I'm doing the same as you, favoring my own experience and knowledge.

My business formerly had me working with Chinese factories on the manufacture and logistics of producing game components for the NA market.

I work on early versions of a game called Clank!, maybe you have heard of it.......

I don't have the current details of FFG operations, but I worked with the person in charge of setting up logistics for their games. He was the third person hired on to FFG in the 90's for Twilight Imperium v1. So, I have had first-hand conversations about FFG's  Pre-Asmodee operational logistics. Conversations had with a professional level of detail on what all is involved.   

So, when I see the assertion that ffg made these decisions this summer, I see those as the definitive fantasy. 
 

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On 10/11/2017 at 3:13 PM, Shizrak said:

So now the barrier to entry is $210 plus tax (3 cores and 6 packs), for anyone who wants to start the game after the new year begins.

I don't understand. The 6 packs are not necessary to start the game.

I played with only 2 cores with a friend to learn the basics (and the nasty, dirty Scorpion tricks !!) of the game and we had plenty of fun. I'll wait until they release the 6 packs and buy them all at once. 6 in 6 weeks is indeed too fast for me. I liked the old format of 6 in 6 months.

Maybe your fear resides in the fact that releasing packs so fast means that the first deluxe expansion would be just around the corner, hence not having enough time to familiarize ourselves with the new cards for each pack, like we are used to do. I understand that.

Not sure if it's what FFG plans on doing for this game. Maybe they'll do that just for the first cycle to promote the game or test the market...

 

Edited by Shirys

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You see that as fantasy because your understanding of the process regarding these products is fantasy.

You don't have to rely on your own experiences, or severely outdated information from/about FFG. You have FFGs own relatively recent word on the subject.

I know it bursts your bubble, but to continue to hold to your factually incorrect information is beyond absurd.

FFG has said that cycles of packs are printed together, are shipped together, and warehouses together before being distributed. 

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I was going to buy all 6 packs of the expansion anyways.  I am glad I get to have them in my hands sooner rather than later.  I wish I could say I was surprised people are complaining about the quick release, but if the internet has taught me anything, it's that people will always find something to act indignant about.

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15 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

FFG has said that cycles of packs are printed together, are shipped together, and warehouses together before being distributed. 

Really? Then how can the status of the first pack of a cycle be shipping and the second pack still be at the printer?  Did they put up false information?

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4 hours ago, DarkFate said:

Really? Then how can the status of the first pack of a cycle be shipping and the second pack still be at the printer?  Did they put up false information?

To give a false impression of availability. Or they've changed how they have done printing with new management.

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Was just introduced to the "ruling" that Way of the Lion, played twice, doubles the printed base on the first instance and then the modified "base" on the second. This effectively increases their clan champion from military skill 6 to 24. The interpretation does linguistic  violence to the word base and serves to introduce a significant imbalance to the cards effect. IF this is what we can expect from future rulings, I'm thinking that buying any further product is doubtful.

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39 minutes ago, Rulesjd said:

Was just introduced to the "ruling" that Way of the Lion, played twice, doubles the printed base on the first instance and then the modified "base" on the second. This effectively increases their clan champion from military skill 6 to 24. The interpretation does linguistic  violence to the word base and serves to introduce a significant imbalance to the cards effect. IF this is what we can expect from future rulings, I'm thinking that buying any further product is doubtful.

There are a few terms that are important to understand when dealing with any card game.

When a stat refers to the "base" it means the core element prior to any bonuses.  The base can be directly modified, though modifications to the base are rare because of certain implications.  Doubling the base is one of these - so you aren't wrong to feel it is a bit odd that they've made this card.  I don't think WotL is the best thought out card - but its workings were pretty clear to me on my first encounter.

When an effect wants to refer to the completely stock, unmodified stat of a card it would refer to it as the "printed base."  When anything refers to the "printed" it means absolutely what is on the card and nothing else.

I don't know if this makes you feel any better about this game or not - but I hope it at least helps you decipher these mechanics better when you encounter them in your next game... because every game uses this concept.

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1 hour ago, Rulesjd said:

Was just introduced to the "ruling" that Way of the Lion, played twice, doubles the printed base on the first instance and then the modified "base" on the second. This effectively increases their clan champion from military skill 6 to 24. The interpretation does linguistic  violence to the word base and serves to introduce a significant imbalance to the cards effect. IF this is what we can expect from future rulings, I'm thinking that buying any further product is doubtful.

Well I mean if a Lion player wants to blow two of their three way cards on one fight then...I mean...go ahead. Have fun. It will be risky against Crane and Scorpion though due to cancel mechanics. Voice of Honor or Forged Edict will ruin that strategy.

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17 minutes ago, theGricks said:

Well I mean if a Lion player wants to blow two of their three way cards on one fight then...I mean...go ahead. Have fun. It will be risky against Crane and Scorpion though due to cancel mechanics. Voice of Honor or Forged Edict will ruin that strategy.

Well, if that one fight is attacking the stronghold...

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19 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

 If the character is bowed, that's a while lot of useless skill value. Or sent home (Outwit, anyone?)

Or just have Judge Dredd aka Steward of Law hit them with a For Shame, and cancel their Ready for Battle in response.

 

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I think the bottom line here is this:

Stale metas kill the game. Imperial in 6 weeks ensures that won't happen.

Second, people are acting like your 3 core set decks are going to be garbage. Not so! Core set cards tend to be purposely strong to ensure people buy 3 of them. 

Even after the whole Imperial cycle is out 3 core decks will still be good. You're just not going to have the variety of good builds and there may be an upgrade or two that you miss out on. 

Still, if you play well you're going to do fine. Buy the packs you like when you can, your decks are not going to suddenly be obsolete in two months, it will take longer than that for the meta to figure out what to do with the new cards anyway.

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No matter what I am in for the first cycle.  The only thing that would kill it for me this early on would be if 2/3 of the decks at worlds are the same clan (not including splash).  Then all you have is another power gamer driven LCG with a thematic nod to Old5R.

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6 hours ago, shosuko said:

There are a few terms that are important to understand when dealing with any card game.

When a stat refers to the "base" it means the core element prior to any bonuses.  The base can be directly modified, though modifications to the base are rare because of certain implications.  Doubling the base is one of these - so you aren't wrong to feel it is a bit odd that they've made this card.  I don't think WotL is the best thought out card - but its workings were pretty clear to me on my first encounter.

When an effect wants to refer to the completely stock, unmodified stat of a card it would refer to it as the "printed base."  When anything refers to the "printed" it means absolutely what is on the card and nothing else.

I don't know if this makes you feel any better about this game or not - but I hope it at least helps you decipher these mechanics better when you encounter them in your next game... because every game uses this concept.

Not to get too off topic, but what is considered the base value?  If someone attaches an attachment, is the base value what's printed, or printed + modifier?

(What do you mean by "directly modified", I guess is what I'm asking?)

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The Base Value is:

Quote

The value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied. For most quantities, it is also the printed value.

"Other modifiers" isn't specifically defined but I think it's safe to treat it as meaning all modifiers that don't specifically say they modify the base quantity. So Lions Pride Brawler with a Fine Katana has a Mil of 5, but a base Mil of 3. If you then Way of the Lion her she now has a Mil of 8 and a base Mil of 6.

Currently the only two cards that modify base quantities are the aformentioned WotL, as well as Bayushi Yunako. (Don't ask me how those two interact though, because I'm not really sure. edit: Looks like they affect the Base skill in timestamp order.)

Edited by GoblinGuide

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12 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Not to get too off topic, but what is considered the base value?  If someone attaches an attachment, is the base value what's printed, or printed + modifier?

(What do you mean by "directly modified", I guess is what I'm asking?)

I'm going to take a swing at this, see if it makes sense. If i misrepresent something, someone please feel free to correct me and cite the source if there is one.

'Base' here means before any continuous modifiers. So anything that boosts a stat and then is done is not a modifier. That was how I interpreted it. Modifiers are things which are hanging out there continuously doing something to a stat. So generally modifiers are attachments, and also the Glory +/- mod... but it would also be stuff like Honored General, who buffs everyone else continuously. His buff is a modifier and wouldn't be included in another character's 'base' stat. 

If you have some programming experience it's like a loop and you've got an if/then to enter the loop. if that describes the situation, then it's a modifier. So you'll see statements like 'during' or 'while' which would be your loop. The loop for glory and attachments is of course, 'while honored/dishonored...' and 'while attached...'

Things which aren't modifiers don't have a loop. They just have one check and then resolve and finish.

 

Edited by Tebbo

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Under 'modifiers' of the Rules Reference:

"Modifiers Some abilities may ask players to modify values. The game state constantly checks and (if necessary) updates the count of any variable quantity that is being modified."

This would include anything from Fine Katanas to Wandering Ronin's ability to Banzai and other events, by my reading. 'Base skill' was defined as before any modifiers. So it sounds like the rules don't distinguish between modifiers and your 'continuous' modifiers. The only reason Way of the Lion actually changes the base skill is because it directly says to change the base value on the card.

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Yeah I was talking about what a modifier even means in the first place. The breakdown I used is the same as the rulebook just in different words. I didn't bother to look in the rulebook since the principles are always the same. I wasn't making a distinction between kinds of modifiers, although I can see how it seems that way now.

Constantly checks and updates = a loop. That'd be the 'continuous' I mean. you enter into the loop and then loop continuously until you leave the loop because you no longer meet the conditions to continue the loop.

The case with way of the lion is, as you said, only special because it says base skill explicitly. The bit I added about something which checks, resolves and is finished is sort of like a pedantic distinction since that applies really to things which modify the game state itself. which we usually don't call 'modifiers' but which functionally do the same thing just on a different scale.

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On 10/11/2017 at 2:58 PM, Shizrak said:

I suppose my point wasn't clear enough. I'm not quitting because I can't stretch to afford it. I'm quitting because this cash-grab is going to discourage new players. With so much content coming so fast, there won't be any real time to build a community before people start falling behind.

I want to raise awareness that this was a poor decision. I wish I could ACTUALLY not purchase, but I already got my cores expecting one thing, and instead got something completely different. So now I need to sell core sets.

I'll give you $10 for the cores. 

 

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@Shizrak Yeah I don't get the "I expected one thing and got another"?  At won't point did anyone say they wouldn't release all 6 expansion packs in 6 weeks?  Did you not buy 3 core sets and get 3 core sets?  Just because you had an expectation of a particular model even though at no point did anyone set that expectation other than "previous games", working under the assumption that because one game did it X way, all games from here until the end of time must do it the same or they what cheated you somehow?

I just don't get this logical and just to be clear, I think you are absolutely dead wrong about the community adoption rate, the exact opposite is proven to be true about cycles and adoption of games beyond a shadow of a doubt.  No collectible game is worth a crap until at least one cycle is complete and even then its generally considered "underdeveloped".  The most common complaint on release of any core set for any game up until this point has always been "not enough content"... be it a miniature game or card game.. its always the same.. "got the core set, disappointed, this game will be great when more content is released"... This is ALWAYS the routine, I can't think of a single game in 30 years of playing games where this has not been the case which is why I find this logical absolutely puzzling.  It makes absolutely not sense whatsoever.  Quite literally this is the first time FFG or any company I have ever heard that actually listened to the complaints and made an attempt to remedy the problem by actually giving us the much needed content we are ALWAYS ******* about when they do a release.

This entire thread is like opposite day, Bizzaro world stuff... so weird to hear these complaints.

Edited by BigKahuna

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