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Shiba Jaimi

Duels...Dueling...Duelist

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5 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

But you have to risk honor in every duel.

And hear I thought we'd had a meaningful conversation :(

As we discussed earlier, Duelist Training lets you pay the bid difference in cards, rather than honor. Yes, it's 1 card. That 1 card represents 33% of the existing duel options in the game right now. That's a full third of the duels that do not require any risk of honor whatsoever. I see little reason to believe we won't get additional cards that present interesting twists to the standard dueling mechanics. 

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2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

And hear I thought we'd had a meaningful conversation :(

As we discussed earlier, Duelist Training lets you pay the bid difference in cards, rather than honor. Yes, it's 1 card. That 1 card represents 33% of the existing duel options in the game right now. That's a full third of the duels that do not require any risk of honor whatsoever. I see little reason to believe we won't get additional cards that present interesting twists to the standard dueling mechanics. 

You're wasting your time.  It actually thinks it's been proven right when so far in 10 pages not one thing it has stated has been proven right and a lot of things have been instead shown to be nonsensical.

Edited by Joelist

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3 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

And hear I thought we'd had a meaningful conversation

And we are... Prove I am wrong, and I will change my opinion. I am easier than a scorpion prostitute. And they are REALLY easy. Don't know why.

 

6 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Yes, it's 1 card. That 1 card represents 33% of the existing duel options in the game right now. That's a full third of the duels that do not require any risk of honor whatsoever. I see little reason to believe we won't get additional cards that present interesting twists to the standard dueling mechanics. 

And I understand that, you are not wrong. But does one out of three duels in the game actually equate to a dueling system?

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Just now, Zesu Shadaban said:

I mean, who needs to point fingers when you can blame an entire political party, and everyone who votes for or is affiliated with it, right? Because when it doubt, bring politics into the argument...politics always make arguments better. 

No, no, no... I am just saying, someone in this thread said, "nothing will ever change my mind, the dueling system is perfect" but then said, "The dueling rules should be different when ties happen."

 

So, don't change the rules, but change the rules... Really?

 

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5 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Does 2 out of 3 duels mean every. single. duel. risks honor? 

     This was the point we agreed on...every time you have to adjust the "dishonor dial" you have to risk honor. That is the underlying rules. One duel gives you the option of losing cards and not honor, but that is the outlier. You said it yourself...it is one card, 33% of the duels. I am just asking, "Is 33% of all the duels a dueling system?"

 

     It is ok to say no.

Edited by Shiba Jaimi

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2 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

No, no, no... I am just saying, someone in this thread said, "nothing will ever change my mind, the dueling system is perfect" but then said, "The dueling rules should be different when ties happen."

I get that he has been somewhat abrasive, but let's look again at what he actually said: 
 

Quote

The only thing I could possibly concede about the dueling system is that a tie should have some effect rather than cancel the duel out.  Since ties in conflicts are wins for the attacker, I would accept that a tie in a duel should be a win for the initiating duelist...  Other than that - the way it works now is *perfect* and nothing anyone says will change FFG's mind. 

He's acknowledging that a change to how ties are dealt with would be a positive change. He concedes *that* change would be good, and OTHER THAN that change, he feels the rules are good as is. He just doesn't agree that a complete overhaul of the system is warranted, a tweak here and new card variations there. Give more duel variants to cater to different duelists' interests. 

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@Shiba Jaimi Is Duelist Training, by itself, the entire dueling system? No, of course not. What it IS though is one aspect of a dueling system that proposes we can have multiple variations to dueling. Not all duels have to resolve in exactly the same way. For that matter, none of the current duel options is THE dueling system, because each is unique. They have similarities, as they should, because they all tie into the same overarching system. But they each function very differently. 

It can reasonably be argued even that Duelist Training is far more influential in the dueling system than either of the other two dueling cards. The other two cards are in-clan dynasty characters. And they're both unique, so you can only have a single copy in play at a time. Only their specific clans can play them. Duelist Training however, is an attachment with NO restrictions as far as what type of character you attach it to. It costs 1 influence, so 3 copies can easily be played in any clan's deck. And it's not unique, so you can even have multiple copies of it in play at once. If anything, the actual duelist characters are more "outliers" in the dueling system than Duelist Training. Duelist Training is, effectively, the only core set dueling card that can be widely used, and in theory is positioned to be the most used dueling option in the game. 

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5 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

let's look again at what he actually said:

Yes, lets do that. Here is his full post:

_____

"I have an idea - play the game the way it is.  FFG isn't going to change the rules, what they will do is print more cards.  Cards that give different duel initiations, as well as different duel reactions.  There may even be a duel that is actually for honor.  Every duel is not for honor.  Currently NO duel is for honor in this game.  Dueling is not inherently honorable.  Dueling rather than fighting a war isn't for honor, it is to save bodies.  Dueling to kill someone isn't for honor, it is to kill them.

The only thing I could possibly concede about the dueling system is that a tie should have some effect rather than cancel the duel out.  Since ties in conflicts are wins for the attacker, I would accept that a tie in a duel should be a win for the initiating duelist...  Other than that - the way it works now is *perfect* and nothing anyone says will change FFG's mind.  What the system needs are more cards.  You have 3 different duels and no specific duel reactions or attachments.  Come back at the next deluxe box and see if you still can't stand it, because the rules won't change from here to there I guarantee you that."

_____

 

The whole first paragraph is him saying, "Don't change the rules." In the second paragraph, he says, "The only thing I could possibly concede about the dueling system is that a tie should have some effect rather than cancel the duel out." So, he is arguing for changing the rules.

 

So...that is where I came up with...republican. And there is nothing wrong with being a republican. It is 2017, everyone gets to come out of the closet.

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3 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

The whole first paragraph is him saying, "Don't change the rules." In the second paragraph, he says, "The only thing I could possibly concede about the dueling system is that a tie should have some effect rather than cancel the duel out." So, he is arguing for changing the rules.

We'll just agree to disagree on that too, because that isn't how I read the first paragraph at all. I can certainly see how that could be inferred from how he said it, but I see him suggesting playing the existing rules because FFG won't change them, they'll just add variation to the existing rules with new card options. Which to be quite frank, I think he's probably right in that respect. And I sincerely hope that the early dynasty packs do in fact provide new dueling options to expand on themes/dueling styles to suit what you envision duels to be. 

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2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

 Is Duelist Training, by itself, the entire dueling system? No, of course not.

And that is my point...

 

2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Not all duels have to resolve in exactly the same way.

I agree. But there have the same underlying rules. Unless a card actually says, "do not use the honor dial" every duel uses the dishonor dial.

 

See, we are having a very productive conversation.

 

4 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

It can reasonably be argued even that Duelist Training is far more influential in the dueling system than either of the other two dueling cards.

Because you can splash it anywhere, I agree.

 

6 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

If anything, the actual duelist characters are more "outliers" in the dueling system than Duelist Training.

Only if you are looking at one game. I am looking at the all of the cards and the dueling rules applying overall. There are nine cards that have duels, three of those cards are the attachment in question. If you are looking at which duels get trigger most often...yes, it is Duelist Training. But I am not throwing out the baby in the bath water...once you choose honor in the Duelist Training duel...you hit the problem in question...the broken rule.

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2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

We'll just agree to disagree on that too, because that isn't how I read the first paragraph at all. I can certainly see how that could be inferred from how he said it...

I can respect that. Like said, I am not trying to be a troll or a ****...even with the republican thing.

 

4 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

but I see him suggesting playing the existing rules because FFG won't change them

Right...Not changing the rules. I got it.

 

5 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

they'll just add variation to the existing rules with new card options. Which to be quite frank, I think he's probably right in that respect.

Oh, I agree. FFG wants money. They will absolutely try to sell us cards. My concern is, if they do not change the underlying rules, it will probably still be broken. See my point?

 

6 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

And I sincerely hope that the early dynasty packs do in fact provide new dueling options to expand on themes/dueling styles to suit what you envision duels to be.

I am a romantic at heart...I certainly want to fall in love with the game. Right now, I feel more, "oh, this is cute."

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Right. So your issue is that, even when no honor is actually at risk (as is the case with Duelist Training), because the honor dial is still used in the dueling process, it is therefore broken. IMHO using the honor dial when I can just pay the cost in cards makes that issue moot. Agree to disagree. 

Glad we can at least agree on the value of Duelist Training because of its splashability. 

If you choose honor with Duelist Training, it's either because you initiated it without enough cards to pay the cost you bid (your own decision and fault) or because you made the choice to pay honor instead of cards (still your own decision and fault). Either case, you are putting yourself into a dishonorable bid. And as far as your "3 out of 9 cards" comment, those 3 can be played in 7 out of 7 clans. The other 6 cards are sets of 3 that can only be played in 1 out of 7 clans. In addition to that, only 1 out of 3 can be in play at a time. Duelist Training can have 3 out of 3 in play at a time. Single game or not, Duelist Training is simply able to be more widely used throughout the community by players who want to duel. So, Agree to disagree. 

 

To be perfectly frank, the odds of FFG making a fundamental change to the dueling system - removing the use of the honor dials for bidding, which at the core of it seems to be the real issue you have with the current dueling system - are lower than the number of players who will likely quite playing because of the dueling system. Most players are more likely to get used to it, or build decks that do without dueling. That's my opinion, and at this stage I suspect that is FFG's expectation, if they have even formulated any such concern over reception of the dueling system. If you don't like the dueling system, you can play without using dueling, you can see what variations come out with new cards, you can contact FFG to voice your concerns over dueling and get an actual response from them. Or you can give up and quit playing because this one mechanic feels wrong to you. That is absolutely your choice to make and only you can say with 100% certainty what option will leave you the most satisfied (or least dissatisfied). 

Edited by Zesu Shadaban

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Bidding 1 is as honorable as a duelist can be. But honor is not just about how a person acted but also how others think that person acted. So when the opponent played something that reduces his bid to 0, it doesn't mean that the character action becomes more honorable  or that his opponent becomes less. It just means that he makes other think so.

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4 minutes ago, DarkFate said:

Bidding 1 is as honorable as a duelist can be. But honor is not just about how a person acted but also how others think that person acted. So when the opponent played something that reduces his bid to 0, it doesn't mean that the character action becomes more honorable  or that his opponent becomes less. It just means that he makes other think so.

     Welcome to the conversation of the night... We covered this earlier, but I do not hold it against you...there 200 posts in this thread. That's a lot to read.

 

     To respond to your post directly, according to the rules, the honor dial is the indication of the amount of honor you are willing to RISK in the duel (or card draw). This means, it has nothing to do with other people. It is about your duelist, fighting for your clan, alone. So, there is no honorable duel in L5R right now. All duels start dishonorable. And bidding "1" does not solve the problem because, even if both you and the opponent bid "1", the instant "Contingency Plan" hits the table on your opponents side, you lose one honor. Because that was the amount of honor YOU HAD TO RISK BECAUSE THE RULES SAID SO. Even if you play "Contingency Plan" also. You still have to "do something" to stop the honor loss. And even if you both bid the same number, you were both willing to be an equal amount of "dishonorable" in the duel. So, there is no such thing as an honorable duel in L5R, right now. I wish there was, but...

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5 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

That just took things to a whole new weird place and makes me uncomfortable...I'm done. 

Didn't mean to offend you, I was just being playful.

 

Still, it was nice talking to you.

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Amusingly (for me) in your verbal duelling with Zesu you have gained little honor (likes) whereas Zesu has gained much honor (likes). I also dont think you won the duel. Therefore in L5R terms you bid 5 and Zesu bid 1 and Zesu has won the duel with 4 honor (likes)!

Strangely matches your warped perception of duelling and how you actually claim you duel.

I am not going to bother addressing your continued incorrect assumptions. As a Crane I just cancelled your duel attempt as I have more honourable characters than you (this game relates to real life as well! it rocks!!!!)

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15 minutes ago, Matrim said:

Amusingly (for me) in your verbal duelling with Zesu you have gained little honor (likes) whereas Zesu has gained much honor (likes). I also dont think you won the duel. Therefore in L5R terms you bid 5 and Zesu bid 1 and Zesu has won the duel with 4 honor (likes)!

Strangely matches your warped perception of duelling and how you actually claim you duel.

I am not going to bother addressing your continued incorrect assumptions. As a Crane I just cancelled your duel attempt as I have more honourable characters than you (this game relates to real life as well! it rocks!!!!)

I don't care if I am "liked"... I care about being right. But it is a cute joke.

 

Plus, on more than one point, Zesu agreed with me, so I am still good. As a matter of fact, a number of people that started talking about dueling have made there own arguments for changing the dueling rules.

 

I have been VERY productive.

Edited by Shiba Jaimi

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8 hours ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

 Look Starbane, I get it. You like the game, I respect that. You feel obligated to defend it, fine. The dueling rules are broken. Quoting the rules to me does not convince me, because I already read the rules and I play the game everyday. That is how I know the dueling rules are broken. 

 

 

I do like the game. I also like the dueling rules. In my opinion they are superior to the old rules.

The dueling rules are not broken. Based on the definition of honor in the rules as I posted earlier, duels are functioning as FFG intended them. You are attempting to turn dueling into something it is not per the rules. You are confusing what you don’t like with the conditioning of being broken. The dueling rules work fine as they are written and implemented. They are clearly not what you want them to be. However, that does not make them broken and none of your post have proven the rules to be broken, only to be different than what you think they should be.

Edited by Starbane

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8 hours ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

     If honor does not mean HONOR, then F-CK THIS GAME!! I can quit right now. Give away my cards, stop getting people together, stop contributing to tournament prize support and actively give negative publicity to the game any time someone asks me about it. ****, I will make sure never to buy another fantasy flight game again...ever...if honor doesn't mean HONOR.

Yes. Please do.

 

With best regards,

The rest of the community

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13 hours ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

     Just like any sport we watch today. The winner is rewarded. In every sport we watch on television, it is the winners that go on to compete for the titles. In Hockey, for example, if you win enough games, you get the Stanley Cup. In Soccer, win all your games, and you get the Ashes. In boxing, win all your fights, and you get the The Title...Champion. The Stanley Cup, The Ashes and The Championship Title in boxing are all "honors" given to the winner. I have yet to see the highest honors of a sport given to the last place team. Everyone arguing in favor of the current "dishonor" system is using the "edge case", the "rare instance" as the norm. "Loss of control", "dueling the unworthy", "cheating"...these are just some of the excuses used to validate the current rules. In America's NFL, the team that WINS the Superbowl gets the Rings and the Trophy....NOT THE LOSING TEAM! But in the current dueling system, you cannot have an honest duel. It is always dishonorable, honor does not always get exchanged, but both players are always risking honor. And the AVERAGE duel ends with the person with the highest military stat losing honor to the LOSING character. IT IS FLIPPING BACKWARDS!!!!

 

So every Samurai, Courtier and Shugenja in Rokugan is the equivalent of the top players of a professional sport, in terms of skill?  Also, what you describe is best described as Glory, not Honor (Especially in RPG Terms, not so much in the LCG terms since glory isn't really touched), as well as being the pinnacle of each sport.  So every duel is equivalent to THE event for a sport?  

So I would agree, if you win a major dueling tournament, you should probably gain honor.  However, in the LCG, there are no major dueling tournaments carded.  We don't have a <X> Championship event.  These duels could be back alley duels (Which should probably lose both sides honor for participating), or battlefield duels (where you really are just trying to kill each other, again not the most honorable).

But Honor really depends on behavior, not results.  Honor is a representation of a morality code, and is an important concept to the game.  Results do matter, but method also matters, and to some it matters more.  Nothing inherent about a duel is "Honorable" or "Dishonorable", it is generally just a method to resolve legal disputes, or to start a fight with each other, or just a pissing match.   Nothing about a duel is inherently honorable or dishonorable, but the surrounding situation is what defines it.

Lets take an example:

Bayushi Jin learns Kitsuki Daisuke's dark secret of his love affair with Kakita Kae.  Jin blackmails Daisuke saying that he would expose their secret unless Daisuke finds an some reason to challenge Shiba Jouta, an inexperienced duelist in court.  Daisuke tricks Jouta into saying something unfortunate and challenges him.  The duel goes normally, and Daisuke wins handily using normal means, no tricks, just by being a better duelist.  Is this honorable of Daisuke?  Is this Dishonorable of Jouta?

Based on your reasoning, Daisuke should gain honor, despite basically causing a stink to cover up his own shame.

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We may yet see duels which do something with a tie.

It's just too early to gripe too hard. After these 120 more cards are added we might have a better idea how duels can play out and whether they're fun and thematic or bleh.

I imagine we will see Crane dueling cards which allow us to recover some honor or like duelist training, use other resources in place of honor. 

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