How to Sloane screen?

[Norell 1,198]

I have this fleet and I'm pondering about how to make the screen better. I'm sure it would wash away almost any fighter screens it comes across but there is the question of Sloane-ing. Should I put more hull into the screen to increase my flak defense or should I focus on more fighters to activate?

 

Not-BT Avenger
Author: Norell

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Capture the VIP
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
-  Admiral Sloane  ( 24  points)
-  Avenger  ( 5  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points)
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points)
-  Overload Pulse  ( 8  points)
= 177 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier (54 points)
-  Stronghold  ( 5  points)
-  Flight Controllers  ( 6  points)
-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points)
= 70 total ship cost

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points)
3 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 24 points)
1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points)

[Megatronrex 2,867]

I like it it's a good screen on a solid fleet. I'd drop Overload Pulse and Valen to add Dengar and a Skilled First Officer. I just think Dengar brings more to this particular screen than Valen. Swapping Ciena for Zertic will get you more mileage out of Fel as well.

[Tokra 2,147]

13 hours ago, Megatronrex said:

I like it it's a good screen on a solid fleet. I'd drop Overload Pulse and Valen to add Dengar and a Skilled First Officer. I just think Dengar brings more to this particular screen than Valen. Swapping Ciena for Zertic will get you more mileage out of Fel as well.

But you dont want black dice against ships when you are playing Sloane. Zertik is still fine, because he has a reroll (by damaging your 3 hull TIEs....).
The Fighter Screen is 30 points short. But to get these missing points, you need to drop one Gozanti or reduce the Quasar.
And you are missing the Jendon Stele combo. In a Sloane list these two are just to good to not take them. The double blue from Stele, his effect and Sloane make these two the most dangerous ship killer of all squadrons that you can take. No matter if they cost 41 points. They are worth far more than this.

Overload Pulse is really wasted on the ISD with Avenger. You cannot use the crit to exhaust the tokens to prevent them from being used against the ISD. And exhausting them after the attack does not help this much (you want to exhaust them before the attack). Sure, you can use the crit to exhaust them, and send in the squadrons after it to discard them. But this is a waste of the ISD firepower.
Same with XI7. In combinaton with avenger it is a bit wasted. I see what you want to do with it (only exhaust the brace with Sloane and deal nearly max damage). But these 6 points are missing on other, more important, places.

[Green Knight 9,746]

ALWAYS take Jendon/Maarek combo.

Maarek can shoot 2 blue - twice with Jendon.

An he can always set a crit, which Sloane can reroll.

So every round he effectively has 2x3 blue dice he can try to score an acc with.

After defense tokens have gone, he can reliably do 4 damage per round.

That is simply too good not to take.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Green Knight

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

See all of the above. There are several theories on how to build Sloane fighter screens, but all accept the supremacy of Maarek/Jendon. Dengar's black is perfectly fine, you have a host of blue dice to strip tokens with and his Counter more than makes up for the fact he *merely damages his targets when he bombs. Strip OP for either LS or SW-7, and probably drop a Gozanti and spend it in fighters. I prefer Defenders, but TIEs suit many people just fine.

[Green Knight 9,746]

4 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

See all of the above. There are several theories on how to build Sloane fighter screens, but all accept the supremacy of Maarek/Jendon. Dengar's black is perfectly fine, you have a host of blue dice to strip tokens with and his Counter more than makes up for the fact he *merely damages his targets when he bombs. Strip OP for either LS or SW-7, and probably drop a Gozanti and spend it in fighters. I prefer Defenders, but TIEs suit many people just fine.

If you take Intel, Dengar's single black is acceptable. It's not desirable, but you can live with it.

Beyond that I feel a minimum of 8 squadrons total is needed, with no less than 9 blue anti-ship battery possible between them.

If you go with Chirraneau you can easily get to a "screen" with 10 squadrons and up to 12 blue battery dice.

[Norell 1,198]

Fair points but all of these suggestions would mean to get rid of one Gozanti. Wouldn't 3 activations be a huge disadvantage? I mean this is obviously a formation fleet and with so many squadrons deployment won't be an issue. But if I lose that single Goz because I'm out-activated, I won't be able to command all my squadrons any more.

[Tokra 2,147]

1 hour ago, Norell said:

Fair points but all of these suggestions would mean to get rid of one Gozanti. Wouldn't 3 activations be a huge disadvantage? I mean this is obviously a formation fleet and with so many squadrons deployment won't be an issue. But if I lose that single Goz because I'm out-activated, I won't be able to command all my squadrons any more.

Yes, 3 activations is a problem. But not for activating the squadrons. The ISD and Quasar can do this fine, you just need to switch to squadron on the ISD in time, when you notice you will lose the Gozanti. The bigger problem is being outactivated by the opponent, and being able to react.
This is why i don't like the ISD + Quasar combination. These two combined are just to expensive. But the only alternatives would be to downsize the ISD (to a VSD) or the quasar (to a mix of 2+ Raider, Arquitens and Gozanti).

[Norell 1,198]

How about this?

Not-BT Avenger 1.2
Author: Norell

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Capture the VIP
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

 

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
-  Admiral Sloane  ( 24  points)
-  Avenger  ( 5  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points)
= 163 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier (54 points)
-  Flight Controllers  ( 6  points)
-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points)
= 65 total ship cost

 

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
3 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 24 points)
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points)
1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)

 

I feel the ISD is a bit too basic. I also could split Cirena into two TIEs for the numbers...

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

10 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

There are several theories on how to build Sloane fighter screens, but all accept the supremacy of Maarek/Jendon.

No. Maarek/Jendon is an overinvestment in any Sloane fleet that's taking swarm synergy (Howlrunner, Flight Controllers, swarm). You're overpaying for dice fixing you don't need instead of leveraging the synergies you already paid for on the antisquadron side. Just take 4 more blue dice with 94% chance at a useful result--not to mention the possibility of multiple accs--instead of wasting points a combo you're stuck on from two waves ago.

There's an argument to be made for the pair in a TIE defender Sloane list... But first you have to make the argument for using the defenders with Sloane, which is a hard position to defend (heh).

[Green Knight 9,746]

14 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

No. Maarek/Jendon is an overinvestment in any Sloane fleet that's taking swarm synergy (Howlrunner, Flight Controllers, swarm). You're overpaying for dice fixing you don't need instead of leveraging the synergies you already paid for on the antisquadron side. Just take 4 more blue dice with 94% chance at a useful result--not to mention the possibility of multiple accs--instead of wasting points a combo you're stuck on from two waves ago.

There's an argument to be made for the pair in a TIE defender Sloane list... But first you have to make the argument for using the defenders with Sloane, which is a hard position to defend (heh).

This is untrue.

Maarek/Jendon, if correctly using Maarek's ability + Sloane reroll, has very good cost-efficiency, both in terms of damage output and accuracy generation.

Maarek also has speed and durability - and grit, making him a very effective threat.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

This is untrue.

Maarek/Jendon, if correctly using Maarek's ability + Sloane reroll, has very good cost-efficiency, both in terms of damage output and accuracy generation.

Maarek also has speed and durability - and grit, making him a very effective threat.

They have very similar efficiency on the anti-ship side to, say, 3 interceptors and a fighter.

They fall far and away short on the anti-squadron side.

Strong anti-squadron means more shots on hull earlier, which translates into better anti-ship efficiency in all cases except squadronless fleets.

Good flying and a strong alpha mitigates much of the need for durability and, especially, grit.  Furthermore, on the durability point, 4*3 hull > 1*6 hull, even with braces, unless you're letting them all get swept in the same arc of AA.

[Green Knight 9,746]

22 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

They have very similar efficiency on the anti-ship side to, say, 3 interceptors and a fighter.

They fall far and away short on the anti-squadron side.

Strong anti-squadron means more shots on hull earlier, which translates into better anti-ship efficiency in all cases except squadronless fleets.

Good flying and a strong alpha mitigates much of the need for durability and, especially, grit.  Furthermore, on the durability point, 4*3 hull > 1*6 hull, even with braces, unless you're letting them all get swept in the same arc of AA.

Anti-ship 3 int and 1 ftr had less chance of accuracy and overall lower damage.

But as you say, higher anti-squad. I feel Maarekdon had sufficiently good anti-squad to offset this disadvantage, especially since the rest of the points go into swarm anti-squad.

Plus relay, high durability, and ability to operate relatively independently, to strike with great force even when commanded by a lowly Gozanti.

Imo this far outweighs the anti-squad boost.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

5 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I feel Maarekdon had sufficiently good anti-squad to offset this disadvantage, especially since the rest of the points go into swarm anti-squad.

And that's fine:  we can reasonably disagree on whether we think dramatically higher AA is worth marginally lower AS.  That's not the same thing as:

12 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

all accept the supremacy of Maarek/Jendon.

or

43 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

This is untrue.

 

[Tokra 2,147]

54 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

No. Maarek/Jendon is an overinvestment in any Sloane fleet that's taking swarm synergy (Howlrunner, Flight Controllers, swarm). You're overpaying for dice fixing you don't need instead of leveraging the synergies you already paid for on the antisquadron side. Just take 4 more blue dice with 94% chance at a useful result--not to mention the possibility of multiple accs--instead of wasting points a combo you're stuck on from two waves ago.

There's an argument to be made for the pair in a TIE defender Sloane list... But first you have to make the argument for using the defenders with Sloane, which is a hard position to defend (heh).

You use the swarm for the squadron control. But you use Stele for the ship control. The damage from Jendon + Stele against a ship is pure insane. Way more than 4 TIE Interceptors could do. And combined with Sloane it gives you a good flexibility. 

And don't forget. You can use Jendon as well on other squadrons when it comes to squadron combat. Double attack with saber for example. For 5 blue and swarm on distance 2. 
And even Stele is great in the squadron fight. His 2 black and 2 blue are a good ace killer. He will always do at least one damage against squadrons. There is no bad blank roll with him. 

For 41 points you get: 12 hull with brace tokens. Speed 5 on the damage squadron, Jendon want to stay behind after all. You get 4 blue dice against ships, with Bomber and the turn a die to crit effect (two times). 
4 Tie Interceptors cost 44 and have only 3 hull each. They die way to fast. And your damage is going down with them. And against ships you risk always that they get eaten by the flak. 

[Green Knight 9,746]

@Ardaedhel 

Don't do that quote out of context thing.

You claimed Maarek/Jendon was a bad investment in a swarm-need squad screen. They his dice fixing was essentially overpriced.

I disagree very much with that.

Maarek/Jendon is NOT the only way to do it, but your claim they have no place in a swarm synergy screen IS still untrue.

And everything I write is oc just my opinions and feelings.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

3 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

@Ardaedhel 

Don't do that quote out of context thing.

You claimed Maarek/Jendon was a bad investment in a swarm-need squad screen. They his dice fixing was essentially overpriced.

I disagree very much with that.

Maarek/Jendon is NOT the only way to do it, but your claim they have no place in a swarm synergy screen IS still untrue.

And everything I write is oc just my opinions and feelings.

I'm sorry if you felt that it was out of context.  You quoted the whole post and followed with "this is untrue."  None of it is untrue.  You may disagree, but I didn't say anything untrue.  Sorry man, but being called a liar kind of pisses me off.

Anyway, I feel like I've made my point here vis a vis Jendon/Maarek, so I'm done here.  At least now OP has both sides instead of "everybody agrees I'm right."

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

19 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

And that's fine:  we can reasonably disagree on whether we think dramatically higher AA is worth marginally lower AS.  That's not the same thing as:

Snip

or

Snip

'Twas an exaggeration made in jest (mostly), and I apologize if you feel I misrepresented a critical part of debate. I certainly rarely see one without the other, and very infrequently serious Imp squad balls, Sloane or other, that don't use it. It may be coming up on two waves old but it remains deadly and effective. You are rare (in my experience) in not using it after controlling for investment.

As I believe one of the only Sloane Defender players that seriously frequents these boards, I will defend the build the same way I have defended several of my other builds in the past: it's more idiotproof (not entirely but close), and the idiot in question is me. I have (relatively) few squadrons but in exchange mine are fast and are durable. The Defenders are much more likely to survive minor mistakes (especially in positioning and fire allocation), which relieves a lot of pressure on me to spend my mental energies elsewhere. I also am less invested in Sloane's anti ace powers than I am in stripping a target down for the ISD, a role for which my Defenders have never let me down.

This is a running theme in our build styles. I build low skill floor builds that derive effectiveness from brute power and my ability to jump over (again relatively speaking) the learning to fly a list stage to the improving how I fly it. You prefer higher skill floors with commensurately higher skill ceilings and use that once you have learned a list decently you're as experienced as an expert in a low floor list and use that as an edge. Neither is wrong, they're just different.

[Green Knight 9,746]

7 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

I'm sorry if you felt that it was out of context.  You quoted the whole post and followed with "this is untrue."  None of it is untrue.  You may disagree, but I didn't say anything untrue.  Sorry man, but being called a liar kind of pisses me off.

Anyway, I feel like I've made my point here vis a vis Jendon/Maarek, so I'm done here.  At least now OP has both sides instead of "everybody agrees I'm right."

And the whole point of your post was that Maarek/Jendon is inefficient for their price, in a swarm-synergy screen.

That's what I called untrue, because it is very efficient, especially vs ships, but also sufficiently efficient vs squadrons.

We clearly disagree about that, but I  most certainly didn't call you a liar or anything of the sort.

But as you said, you've made your point and let's move along.

[xanderf 6,789]

19 hours ago, Norell said:

Fair points but all of these suggestions would mean to get rid of one Gozanti. Wouldn't 3 activations be a huge disadvantage? I mean this is obviously a formation fleet and with so many squadrons deployment won't be an issue. But if I lose that single Goz because I'm out-activated, I won't be able to command all my squadrons any more.

Thing I've recently learned about going squadron-heavy is that you don't need to activate them all at once.  Indeed, some turns, not at all - remember that fighters can move + shoot (which is what it seems like they usually do)...but can also shoot + move.  Or just shoot, on their own with no activation (or move, even, but 'shoot' is the more interesting part I keep forgetting).  So placing your swarm of fighters ahead of the enemy formation during the squadron phase of a previous turn gives them a problem - they are out of range to shoot them before they move their ships, and if they move them into your range you can then just bank your planned squadron activations and wait for the squadron phase to fire at them.  Then, on your next turn, you DO activate the squadrons, shoot at the ships, and then move them out of range piecemeal.  It definitely creates big zones on the table where the enemy who is activating does not want to end up, which is great for you in other ways.

I imagine this is all painfully obvious to more experienced players, but the idea of using the squadron phase effectively without having 'Rogue' squadrons just never really occurred to me.

 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Just want to swing back by here and apologize for my behavior.  My reaction upthread was childish and not at all conducive to open dialogue, and I'm super embarrassed.  Sorry @Green Knight and @GiledPallaeon.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Just want to swing back by here and apologize for my behavior.  My reaction upthread was childish and not at all conducive to open dialogue, and I'm super embarrassed.  Sorry @Green Knight and @GiledPallaeon.

It's ok. Upon rereading we all sound tired and testy. The internet is terrible at nuance and sarcasm (most of the English language IME). Thank you for being adult enough to come back and say this. It's worth a lot to me.

[TimeBanditz 0]

It has been touched upon in this thread already, but what about just going all out on regular TIE fighters? I mean you could push 16ish TIEs. Lots of blue dice. Though now comes the question og survivability which ive foind to be next to terrible with TIE fighters and Interceptors. Any thoughts?

[Megatronrex 2,867]

4 hours ago, TimeBanditz said:

It has been touched upon in this thread already, but what about just going all out on regular TIE fighters? I mean you could push 16ish TIEs. Lots of blue dice. Though now comes the question og survivability which ive foind to be next to terrible with TIE fighters and Interceptors. Any thoughts?

I've tried it. I get better results out of an all or mostly aces list, or defenders if I'm going generic. The problems with basic TIEs and Ints is flak and enemy aces. Those two things can absolutely wreck some 3 hull fighters quickly. There's also the problem of activating that many squadrons so a lot of them may end up dead before they ever get to take a shot.

[Green Knight 9,746]

5 hours ago, TimeBanditz said:

It has been touched upon in this thread already, but what about just going all out on regular TIE fighters? I mean you could push 16ish TIEs. Lots of blue dice. Though now comes the question og survivability which ive foind to be next to terrible with TIE fighters and Interceptors. Any thoughts?

Playtesting has show this to be very horrible indeed. It's not so bad as anti-squad, but they completely fail once you go into anti-ship mode. Maybe 2-4 plain TIEs (or INTs) in the mix with the aces is the right balance.