Slam and Experimental Interface

[DanteStorm 99]

Ok, here's a question I'm pretty sure I know the answer to, but I'm gonna ask to be sure. If I have a ship, with experimental interface and burnout slam, let's say a JM5K, and I do a 4 straight then slam a 4k turn, do I get the stress from the k turn before I get to trigger EI? Pretty sure I do, and so I can't actually get my second free action.

Thanks in advance for any answers!

 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Yes, you do.  Gaining the stress is part and parcel of executing the manoeuvre.

[DanteStorm 99]

Great, that's what I thought.. guess I have to put adrenaline rush now, but anyway thank you! 

[Giledhil 1,365]

14 hours ago, DanteStorm said:

Great, that's what I thought.. guess I have to put adrenaline rush now, but anyway thank you! 

K-wings have no EpT slot ^^

Edited October 9, 2017 by Giledhil

[Juunon 89]

31 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

K-wings have no EpT slot ^^

They don't have 4 straights or any K-turns either. I think he's talking about Jumpmasters.

[Giledhil 1,365]

1 hour ago, Juunon said:

They don't have 4 straights or any K-turns either. I think he's talking about Jumpmasters.

My bad, my brain didn't process the burnout thingy yet, so I still assume Kwing when I see SLAM

[DanteStorm 99]

Guys, I just realized you can't turn a slammed red maneuver into a white one with adrenaline rush, because ir requires you to revel a red maneuver. While with slam you don't actually reveal another maneuver.

[Sephlar 260]

There is another ship with native slam coming too.

[SkullNBones 43]

Technically you should be able to get the second action. See the FAQ on EI/PTL (pg 17,18 of 4.3.3)

quoting from the PTL entry "... Free actions, such as a free action granted from Squad Leader, can trigger Push the Limit. This can result in an action interrupting another effect, causing that effect to finish resolving later. For example, if a ship performs a free barrel roll action granted by Expert Handling, it could use that action as a trigger for Push the Limit. After Push the Limit resolves, Expert Handling finishes resolving..."

If you K turned first then its a moot point, you get your stress and done, but since the K turn was part of an action (the burned out slam), that action could trigger EI or PTL giving you a second free action before receiving the stress (or in this case double stress).

[DR4CO 6,234]

56 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

Technically you should be able to get the second action. See the FAQ on EI/PTL (pg 17,18 of 4.3.3)

quoting from the PTL entry "... Free actions, such as a free action granted from Squad Leader, can trigger Push the Limit. This can result in an action interrupting another effect, causing that effect to finish resolving later. For example, if a ship performs a free barrel roll action granted by Expert Handling, it could use that action as a trigger for Push the Limit. After Push the Limit resolves, Expert Handling finishes resolving..."

If you K turned first then its a moot point, you get your stress and done, but since the K turn was part of an action (the burned out slam), that action could trigger EI or PTL giving you a second free action before receiving the stress (or in this case double stress).

Unfortunately, the SLAM action involves executing the chosen maneuver in its entirety, which includes "Check Pilot Stress". If you SLAM a red maneuver you will receive the stress then, long before reaching EI/PtL's trigger point.

Edited October 12, 2017 by DR4CO

[SkullNBones 43]

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

Unfortunately, the SLAM action involves executing the chosen maneuver in its entirety, which includes "Check Pilot Stress". If you SLAM a red maneuver you will receive the stress then, long before reaching EI/PtL's trigger point.

I would love to agree with you and I see your point. However (pg 7 of 4.3.3) "...If an effect triggers "after performing an action" or "after executing a maneuver," these effects occur at the same time after a ship performs a SLAM action." Therefore EI/PtL trigger.

[DR4CO 6,234]

18 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

I would love to agree with you and I see your point. However (pg 7 of 4.3.3) "...If an effect triggers "after performing an action" or "after executing a maneuver," these effects occur at the same time after a ship performs a SLAM action." Therefore EI/PtL trigger.

They do trigger, as an action has been performed. But you can't resolve them because you can't actually take any further actions, as you received a stress token as part of executing the maneuver. The full process is:

1. Perform SLAM action, choosing a red maneuver. Execute it through usual process:
   1. Move Ship
   2. Check Pilot Stress. Move was red; assign a stress token to the ship.
   3. Clean Up
2. SLAM action is complete. You have executed an action, so PtL and EI can trigger and attempt to resolve, but as you're now stressed there's nothing you can do with either. You've also executed a maneuver, so you could also trigger something off that (such as an Outlaw Tech).

Edited October 12, 2017 by DR4CO

[SkullNBones 43]

15 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Oh, EI/PTL will trigger, for sure. But you can't resolve them because you can't take any further actions, as you received a stress token as part of executing the maneuver. The full process is:

1. Perform SLAM action; execute red maneuver following usual process:
   1. Move Ship
   2. Check Pilot Stress. Move was red; assign a stress token to the ship.
   3. Clean Up
2. SLAM action is complete. You have executed an action, so PtL and EI can trigger and attempt to resolve, but as you're now stressed there's nothing you can do with either. You've also executed a maneuver, so you could also trigger something off that (such as an Outlaw Tech).

Again, I see your point, however if that were the case, then you could not trigger EI off of PtL or vice verse and you can.
(P17 4.3.3) "...If Experimental Interface and Push the Limit are both equipped to a ship, they can be used together to perform two additional free actions. After the actions have resolved, the ship receives 2 stress tokens..."

So once again, I do see your point (and its an oddity because SLAM requires executing a maneuver), but I believe this falls into an area like Adaptive Ailerons, where the additional maneuver has some allowances (like overlapping an asteroid or another ship) and still NOT skipping the perform action step after the normal maneuver.

In the case of the OP, it could resolve like this, Straight 4, SLAM (4k), EI (Lando), PtL (TL), take 3 stress. (Fortunately they can't get the PtL due to no EPS) but I think so see my point.

A wee bit on the munchkin side of things for me, but RaW point to it being allowed. Almost as bad as Ghost/Phantom+TLT+AC = 4 shots @ 2 hits each throw / round.

Edited October 12, 2017 by SkullNBones
typo

[DR4CO 6,234]

15 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

Again, I see your point, however if that were the case, then you could not trigger EI off of PtL or vice verse and you can.
(P17 4.3.3) "...If Experimental Interface and Push the Limit are both equipped to a ship, they can be used together to perform two additional free actions. After the actions have resolved, the ship receives 2 stress tokens..."

So once again, I do see your point (and its an oddity because SLAM requires executing a maneuver), but I believe this falls into an area like Adaptive Ailerons, where the additional maneuver has some allowances (like overlapping an asteroid or another ship) and still NOT skipping the perform action step after the normal maneuver.

In the case of the OP, it could resolve like this, Straight 4, SLAM (4k), EI (Lando), PtL (TL), take 3 stress. (Fortunately they can't get the PtL due to no EPS) but I think so see my point.

A wee bit on the munchkin side of things for me, but RaW point to it being allowed. Almost as bad as Ghost/Phantom+TLT+AC = 4 shots @ 2 hits each throw / round.

PtL and EI interaction is an entirely different kettle of fish. With them, performing the action and receiving the stress are two different steps, so the other card triggers before the stress applied. Their full process is:

1. An action has been performed; EI and PTL trigger.
   1. Resolve EI. Perform free action. (1)
      1. An action has been performed; PtL triggers. Perform free action.
      2. Receive stress from PTL; it finishes resolving.
   2. Receive stress from EI; it finishes resolving.

With SLAM for a red move, you take the stress as part of performing the action (since the action involves executing a red move which will stress you). Once the action completes, you attempt to resolve PtL and/or EI, find yourself stressed, and can take no further actions. If you SLAM'd a white or green move, then your sequence works perfectly, as you don't receive the stress token during "Check Pilot Stress" while resolving the SLAM action.

(1) Note that if the action you perform with EI here stresses you (such as Fleet Officer), you could not then resolve PtL as you would receive that stress before PtL triggers. Which is why it's almost always correct to PtL first.

Edited October 12, 2017 by DR4CO
No reason to get snarky, Draco. Also, use the right example.

[Parravon 5,217]

57 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

Again, I see your point, however if that were the case, then you could not trigger EI off of PtL or vice verse and you can.
(P17 4.3.3) "...If Experimental Interface and Push the Limit are both equipped to a ship, they can be used together to perform two additional free actions. After the actions have resolved, the ship receives 2 stress tokens..."

So once again, I do see your point (and its an oddity because SLAM requires executing a maneuver), but I believe this falls into an area like Adaptive Ailerons, where the additional maneuver has some allowances (like overlapping an asteroid or another ship) and still NOT skipping the perform action step after the normal maneuver.

In the case of the OP, it could resolve like this, Straight 4, SLAM (4k), EI (Lando), PtL (TL), take 3 stress. (Fortunately they can't get the PtL due to no EPS) but I think so see my point.

A wee bit on the munchkin side of things for me, but RaW point to it being allowed. Almost as bad as Ghost/Phantom+TLT+AC = 4 shots @ 2 hits each throw / round.

You're missing the timing when the stress token is applied. And it effectively will halt any further actions.

If you SLAM a 4K, you are stressed when you've completed that action, therefore although EI or PtL can trigger, you still can't perform their free action due to the stress you got from the 4K.

[Stoneface 3,750]

13 minutes ago, Parravon said:

You're missing the timing when the stress token is applied. And it effectively will halt any further actions.

If you SLAM a 4K, you are stressed when you've completed that action, therefore although EI or PtL can trigger, you still can't perform their free action due to the stress you got from the 4K.

Why doesn't EI or PTL interrupt the stress from the 4k like they do in other circumstances?

[Parravon 5,217]

On 10/12/2017 at 5:35 PM, Stoneface said:

Why doesn't EI or PTL interrupt the stress from the 4k like they do in other circumstances?

Because the stress from the 4K is received before you complete the action, as part of the maneuver.  EI and PtL will nest because they instruct you to perform an action, then receive their stress.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Parravon

[DR4CO 6,234]

30 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Why doesn't EI or PTL interrupt the stress from the 4k like they do in other circumstances?

For the same reason you can't (as a completely random example) use General Hux then Experimental Interface into a Fleet Officer (or vice versa). Both Hux and the Fleet Officer give you a stress token as part of resolving their action, so by the time you resolve the action and reach the point where you could trigger the Interface, you're stressed and cannot take another action.

Edited October 12, 2017 by DR4CO

[AngryAlbatross 786]

You can slam and bomb drop with Genius though right?
(assuming the OP was trying to slam -> cluster mine)

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

7 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

You can slam and bomb drop with Genius though right?
(assuming the OP was trying to slam -> cluster mine)

No. You could slam and use genius to drop a dial bomb in theory but the only ship that could do so currently would be a jumpmaster with Cad Bane crew.

Genius only works with dial bombs.

[AngryAlbatross 786]

@thespaceinvader
If you somehow had a ship with a Bomb, Slam, Experimental Interface, and Pattern Analyzer then you could 4 straight, 4k, then Pattern Analyzer/EI cluster drop, then take 2 stress correct?

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

No.

Pattern Analyser wouldn't work on a SLAMmed manoeuvre; there's no perform action step after it.

[SkullNBones 43]

8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No.

Pattern Analyser wouldn't work on a SLAMmed manoeuvre; there's no perform action step after it.

Again to all above that are countering me, I agree with you (I am not missing the timing, I understand fully how and when stress is applied after a maneuver), however (pg 7 of 4.3.3) "...If an effect triggers "after performing an action" or "after executing a maneuver," these effects occur at the same time after a ship performs a SLAM action." States effects are considered "at the same time" and therefore trigger. So technically the 4k is happening at the same time (since it is a SLAM action) and the stress would stack. If this text did not exist I would not be arguing the point.

[DR4CO 6,234]

You are misunderstanding the text from the FAQ. We're not ignoring; it just doesn't apply here.

What that entry means is that, when you perform a SLAM action, you trigger all "after you perform an action" and "after you execute a maneuver" triggers at the same time, which means you choose the order of resolution. So you could, for example, SLAM a white move, resolve Experimental Interface first, then resolve Kanan Jarrus crew to clear the stress token EI gave you.

But that doesn't matter here. In our situation, the stress token is applied during the "Check Pilot Stress" step, right smack in the middle of both the action and maneuver aspects of a SLAM action. That means it gets there before you complete the action/maneuver, which is when any triggers of either event start attempting to resolve. Since you can't perform actions while stressed, there's nothing more you can do.

Let me see if I can expand my step-by-step guide from earlier to make it as clear as possible.

1. A Jumpmaster has Burnout SLAM, Push the Limit, and Outlaw Tech equipped. It activates and during its "Perform Action" step, chooses to SLAM.
2. Perform SLAM action, choosing a red maneuver. Execute it through usual process:
   1. Move Ship
   2. Check Pilot Stress. <-- the stress token is applied here.
   3. Clean Up
3. An action has been performed, and a maneuver has been executed. All cards triggered by these two events attempt to resolve.
   1. Attempt to resolve Push the Limit off the action first.
      1. Ship is stressed; no further actions are possible. Push the Limit cannot resolve.
   2. Now we attempt to resolve Outlaw Tech off the maneuver.
      1. Maneuver was red, so you may assign a Focus token to the ship.

Unless you can show me a way to eliminate the stress token between step 2.2 and step 3.1, I don't see how there can be anything else to discuss on this topic.

Edited October 13, 2017 by DR4CO

[Parravon 5,217]

1 hour ago, SkullNBones said:

Again to all above that are countering me, I agree with you (I am not missing the timing, I understand fully how and when stress is applied after a maneuver), however (pg 7 of 4.3.3) "...If an effect triggers "after performing an action" or "after executing a maneuver," these effects occur at the same time after a ship performs a SLAM action." States effects are considered "at the same time" and therefore trigger. So technically the 4k is happening at the same time (since it is a SLAM action) and the stress would stack. If this text did not exist I would not be arguing the point.

All of your arguments about things triggering "after and action" or "after a maneuver" are valid with a SLAM action as long as the chosen SLAM maneuver was white or green. If it was red, it changes the whole outcome.

I'm just trying to figure out your logic here. Can you explain how you think the stress would stack, and when you think it would be applied?