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Keep up the hype!

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4 hours ago, Dragonshadow said:

As far as "keeping up the hype" goes, if the book is at the printers, there's no lack of detail stopping FFG from putting out as many previews as they want.  They could do genre focuses, career/specialization focuses (confirming, for instance, that there ARE such focuses and that they have trees that work like they do in Star Wars), previews of magic or even an indicator if genre drives any magic mechanics (e.g. spells might be more self-destructive in the horror genre).  

Paizo started putting out preview articles many weeks before Starfinder, and by the time it arrived people were positively rabid for the game because they knew pretty well what to expect and at what level of detail.  I realize it was a specific genre and a specific setting, and not a generic toolkit, but with such an abundance of new systems arriving, FFG needs to try as hard as possible to convince us that we should wait for a generic engine (ostensibly one we can shape to a setting ourselves) instead of jumping aboard one of the many systems already fleshed out by the details of a world/universe.

I say that last part very much out of self-interest.  My group is deciding on a space opera setting (that's NOT Star Wars) and Starfinder is the front-runner.  We liked Edge of Empires and would love to reskin Starfinder using Genesys if that's even possible in a timely fashion.  The alternative is just move forward with Starfinder (or with the ironically named Esper Genesis that's also coming soon).

I was not overly impressed with Starfinder, but they did a good job of hyping the daylights out of it. I was excited and then disappointed. 

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6 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

I was not overly impressed with Starfinder, but they did a good job of hyping the daylights out of it. I was excited and then disappointed. 

That's the feeling I'm getting from people: they ate up the narrative and its connection to the old game, but at the end of the day, it was still Pathfinder. *shrug*

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I would like to see FFG do more hyping of Genesys. It's supposedly coming out pretty soon (a few months, right?) so they need to get a buzz going. More articles please! Something about character creation maybe? I know from the character sheets there are all these cool talents... how does one come by them? Or pick one of the 5 genre that are supposed to be included and show a bit of it...

There really ought to be weekly articles at this point...

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I haven't touched Starfinder yet but my hype was too low, cause I know the system and I'm dissapointed with Path this year. I love the customization, but just it. It's where Path/Star got a lot of points. The system is the same thing since... 2000 - the d20 system.

I want to play Dungeons¨&Dragons/Pathfinder or Starfinder with Genesys system with the customization of Pathfinder :D <3 

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1 hour ago, Big Head Zach said:

That's the feeling I'm getting from people: they ate up the narrative and its connection to the old game, but at the end of the day, it was still Pathfinder. *shrug*

Sort of. That is some of the problem. It isn't just Pathfinder in space, and (for a d20 level based game) makes some major steps away from standard D&D/Pathfinder clones - getting rid of iterative attacks, given equipment a level as a guide to approximate usage time, no 9th level casters, no +X weapons. A lot of changes to move it away from Pathfinder, but still feel like it's in the family.

 

So those that wanted just Pathfinder in space don't like it (it is too different) and those that wanted a complete break from Pathfinder find it too similar. As one who really likes the 3.x/Pathfinder rules and games, I think it is a really solid system. But I can easily see why others do not.

 

Of course that doesn't mean I won't completely throw it aside when Genesys comes out. :)  I much prefer universal systems over targeted ones - Hero having been my primary system of choice for 32 years. And Genesys, is some ways, the anti-Hero system. Where hero is complex Genesys is simple, and where Hero is very "lock step, you buy it if you want to do it" Genesys is "go with the flow of what the dice roll". So having those two as my go to games gives me just about any play experience I could want.

 

 

Edited by Lordmhoram

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15 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Generic rules systems without settings rarely get much hype because mechanics alone are boring conversation matter. You talk about mechanics when you have to, but you often talk about setting because you want to. If FFG doesn't put out quality settings very quickly, this will be a dud.

Whaaaaaaa

aaaaaaaaaa

aaaaaaaaat?

 

By virtue of it being generic, all they need to do is provision for the most likely scenarios which means sci-fi, cyberpunk and fantasy (with some heroes) and it's surfing the coattails of the SWRPG line to glory.

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33 minutes ago, Lordmhoram said:

And Genesys, is some ways, the anti-Hero system. Where hero is complex Genesys is simple, and where Hero is very "lock step, you buy it if you want to do it" Genesys is "go with the flow of what the dice roll". 

Your description of Genesys is more applicable to Fate Core or the core variant Strands of Fate. These are both a lot more "go with the flow" games then even Genesys.  Personally, I think targeted games are fine so long as the they offer the degree of flexability. Such flexability simply cannot be replicated in level based games. The very nature of level based mechanics requires even the most flexiable level based games to suffer from a tremendous restriction on characters and roleplaying mechanics. 

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19 minutes ago, lyinggod said:

Your description of Genesys is more applicable to Fate Core or the core variant Strands of Fate. These are both a lot more "go with the flow" games then even Genesys.  Personally, I think targeted games are fine so long as the they offer the degree of flexability. Such flexability simply cannot be replicated in level based games. The very nature of level based mechanics requires even the most flexiable level based games to suffer from a tremendous restriction on characters and roleplaying mechanics. 

I can see that. Fate is too nebulous for me. I really don't like playing it. Genesys looks to be the first "narrative" focused game I will be able to stand. :)

My problem (if such a problem actually exists) with targeted games is that I tend to come up with out there campaign ideas. Ran a Fantasy Hero game where the PCs were from other genres (cyberpunk, old west, SF, low powered super, 30s investigator); another was a sort of old west SF thing that I came up with in 92 or so - PCs were travelling band on a frontier world, drove Mechs (as the world had dinosaurs, had some excuse why it had to be man shaped giant robots). My wife and I are planning sort of a Dream Park/Sword Art online game (with Genesys) that we build a character in the real world and (using Star Wars as a base for discussion) a career and specialization that adds onto that, that is his virtual avatar (well 2, a SF one and a Fantasy one). Because of our out there ideas, universal systems tend to work  very well for us.

Edited by Lordmhoram

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Despite the narrative side of Genesys, I believe that the strongest point of the dices in SW/Genesys is the opportunity to create a lot of new things almost from nothing. What is really really important playing Genesys: creativity. Everyone playing should be.

Cooperation is another core element to play Genesys smoothly. Players must be active to think about threats and advantages every round. All players must be a bit of GM in Genesys.

Be creative cause improvisation is a must have skill to play this. Much more than the common systems. It's very challenger for a lot of players in my experience in more than 15 years playing RP`G.

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The lack of crunch to Fate was what steered my group away from it.  They also don't much care for exploding dice, or Savage Worlds might have been a great fit.  As is, we're looking to go Space Opera but not Star Wars.  I like the newness of the universe for Starfinder, as well as a number of the classes.  But Lord, the math... instead of iterative attacks, you have one or two attacks with a fistful of dice doing double-digit damage against two types of AC and two big bags of hit points, and not a single HP loss reduces your effectiveness until you're at 0, at which point you're dead if you didn't hold onto a resource that you could (and probably should) use to power up abilities, but you're instead saving to stabilize when you're unconscious or recover stamina when you have a 10 minute break.  And the bonuses to hit as well as AC climb and climb, with gear stats looking like they've switched to an MMORPG.  It's a little too Pathfinder in the end, which is no surprise but still disappointing.  We're playing Pathfinder currently, and it's very fun, but I don't want the alternating campaign to also feel like Pathfinder.

And yet it may be the best game in town for crunchy mechanics and a solid, fleshed out universe.  Or at least the best at the point where I have to start prepping to run it.

I'm hoping Genesys will provide me with an alternative soon enough to reskin it for Starfinder's setting and at least bring over some of the more interesting classes.  But I need to see some more previews soon just so I can have a little peace of mind.  Come on, FFG, if it rocks, then get it out there for us to see!

Edited by Dragonshadow

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As others have said, Genesys offers something that other narrative-focused games tend to gloss over. Every single roll in Genesys has a narrative impact of some sort whereas Fate and other games like it allows you to bring the narrative into focus but it's not consistently present through the mechanics. Genesys dice are just flat out more interesting and exciting than Fate dice in my opinion.

Genesys is also that rare game that combines mechanical crunch with narrative mechanics that don't swing too far in either direction. I just hope we start seeing stuff that really sets it apart from SW so that it can garner interest with people outside this forum.

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7 hours ago, Popdart said:

As others have said, Genesys offers something that other narrative-focused games tend to gloss over. Every single roll in Genesys has a narrative impact of some sort whereas Fate and other games like it allows you to bring the narrative into focus but it's not consistently present through the mechanics. Genesys dice are just flat out more interesting and exciting than Fate dice in my opinion.

Genesys is also that rare game that combines mechanical crunch with narrative mechanics that don't swing too far in either direction. I just hope we start seeing stuff that really sets it apart from SW so that it can garner interest with people outside this forum.

To be fair to Fate, at its best, the die roll is just the beginning of a skill check.  Then you figure out what aspects you want to invoke to add bonuses, what your opponent will do to mess with your roll or improve their own, and if you want to spend Fate Points to reroll the dice themselves or add further aspects that don't have free invocations.

Frankly Fate's skill checks are a more immediately intuitive system than Genesys/Star Wars uses.  You don't have to translate symbols to maybe pay for extra stuff or pass a blue die forward to improve someone else's roll.  The aspects you have to work with are already in place, and may or may not cost you a resource to bring to bear, but doing so makes a clear narrative path.  That said, I like how you build a dice pool in Genesys by adding blue and black dice as needed, or potentially upgrading under the right circumstances.  Building the dice pool is intuitive.  The dice results require learning a whole new narrative artform.

The problem my group experienced with Fate was about stunts, which are so broadly defined that no one felt particularly comfortable trying to build their own, and instead of a bunch of abilities, you get a small handful.  Most significantly, there's no "path" of how progression will work other than the rare additional refresh point and the slightly less rare skill point.  Simply changing aspect names didn't seem much like "getting shiny new stuff" and having to buy gear out of the same points used to buy stunts just felt like your character didn't have much to it. 

I realize we were all selling the potential of the game short, but it's hard to shake a gut reaction.  So, again, waiting for Genesys and hoping it's timely...

Edited by Dragonshadow

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19 minutes ago, Dragonshadow said:

I realize we were all selling the potential of the game short, but it's hard to shake a gut reaction.  So, again, waiting for Genesys and hoping it's timely...

Talk more about this, please.

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21 hours ago, dlw32 said:

I would like to see FFG do more hyping of Genesys. It's supposedly coming out pretty soon (a few months, right?) so they need to get a buzz going. More articles please! Something about character creation maybe? I know from the character sheets there are all these cool talents... how does one come by them? Or pick one of the 5 genre that are supposed to be included and show a bit of it...

There really ought to be weekly articles at this point...

It looks like bi-weekly articles. The last two came out on September 15th and the 29th.

Hopefully, the next article will post this Friday. :)

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I tried Fate. I've been in a Dresden Files game for a few years.

I hate Fate...well, hate is too strong a word. I dislike it and the only reason I play is the story is good and my friends are awesome.

It's too... nebulous. I have issues with the mechanics that are there and the dice perpetually hate me.

Playing all the Stat Wars I have, and playtesting Genesys, I feel the Narrative Dice System has just enough crunch I need to enjoy a narrative RPG.

Let that assuage what fears it can.

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33 minutes ago, DarthGM said:

I tried Fate. I've been in a Dresden Files game for a few years.

I hate Fate...well, hate is too strong a word. I dislike it and the only reason I play is the story is good and my friends are awesome.

It's too... nebulous. I have issues with the mechanics that are there and the dice perpetually hate me.

Playing all the Stat Wars I have, and playtesting Genesys, I feel the Narrative Dice System has just enough crunch I need to enjoy a narrative RPG.

Let that assuage what fears it can.

I really like some of the mechanics in FATE, scenes having attributes that the players can activate for one, but it was just too nebulous. The players lost interest, even though I enjoyed running it.

Not quite sure why Marvel Heroic Roleplaying failed, but I have a feeling that once again it was too nebulous.

I believe that the vast majority of roleplayers come into the hobby on a D20 system, mostly D&D. A nebulous system like FATE is a pretty large leap from D&D and perhaps too much. 

Star Wars can be challenging to run, there are no ratings on creatures, you have to get to know the game to gauge what will be a challenge. That is the way it should be.

I have been gaming for close to forty years. I think that at times I have lost sight of what makes roleplaying amazing.

My son has recently started running games for his friends, D&D 5e. They do everything organically and with tons of creativity.

I asked him if he was prepared to run his game? He was like I reskinned this monster to be a lich because I wanted them to fight a lich at low levels and we kinda just go with the flow. I set up this puzzle and that puzzle from Zelda.

Anyhow, I feel that the narrative dice system forces some of this.

Edited by TrainedMunkey
clarification

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7 hours ago, Bellyon said:

Talk more about this, please.

When I say my group sold Fate short, I mean many of our gripes about the system could be resolved with effort.  But not all of the group really "got it" to apply that effort.  And it takes a pretty significant rewiring of how you approach an RPG to really unlock the power of Fate.

There are ways to handle progression, equipment upgrades, all the sort of stuff that isn't readily available on a menu for building a character, but it requires a deep understanding of how Fate works, and how it assesses costs to what a character can do.  For instance, gear and abilities are entirely separate in most systems.  You gain abilities as you gain XP/Levels (or the equivalent).  You gain gear as you can afford it or find it.  In Fate, your Shoot skill implies you already have a piece of gear that justifies you shooting at stuff, and it doesn't even need to be noted on your character record.  If you have a signature weapon, that might be one of your permanent aspects if it's key to your character (think Mjolnir for Thor).  Now you can spend a Fate point to use that aspect to gain a bonus when attacking with the weapon.  Some implementations of Fate go an additional step if you want the weapon to do cool stuff, like make a blinding flash when you strike with it that will put a stunning aspect on the target.  If you want to do a specific thing fairly often, you can set up a Stunt.  Now that requires reducing how many Fate Points you get, but it permanently plugs in that point as a stunt.  The stunt may be "Because Mjolnir can channel lightning, when I succeed with Style, I can create an aspect called 'Astonished' instead of a boost on my target with one free invoke".  Normally something like that would be baked into the gear stats, but in Fate, to keep everyone balanced, you pay for the gear ability out of a common pool for your character.

Fate leaves you with a broadly defined character that you can have do amazing, freestyle things without the need for an explicitly defined ability.  The downside, is it's so open-ended, some folks who can't be SERIOUSLY spontaneous can't immediately understand how much lattitude they have, and instead just look down at a really sketchy character record. 

I love Fate.  It would actually be my system of choice.  But enough of my group doesn't feel that way that I have to look for alternatives.  I'm hoping it's Genesys.

Edited by Dragonshadow

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16 hours ago, Bellyon said:

Sorry Dragonshadow, I think I expressed myself badly. I want to know what you think or expect about Genesys.

Oh, sorry.  Well, I like what I've seen so far with Genesys's sample characters.  It seems like there's a bit more going on with them than there was in Edge character construction.  Having multiple motivations is good, albeit a bit of a simplification compared to Fate aspects, but that might be good in that it would be easier to apply them in a given scenario and reward the players for playing to those motivations.

I really like the career and specialization talent trees from Edge, but they fall short in some key ways.  I usually quibble with some of the "lines" joining particular items and may redraw whatever shows up in the core book.  I'm also not fond of how difficult it becomes to buy into additional trees, and may adjust the XP buy in.  I'm a fan of reasonable prerequisites, but those prereq's shouldn't become prohibitive.  In my mind, each career should have a generic core of purchaseable talents and then the specialty trees could be more focused.  I also like an idea I read somewhere recently that there could be very specific mini trees for particular emphasis, perhaps akin to "prestige classes" in d20 terms, but possibly more fundamental, like picking apart a career into simply being able to learn a specific focus like lockpicking, or beast riding, or demolitions, without needing to base your chararacter in that career or blow a ton of XP picking up a non-related career just to get some specific training.

So, really, what I want from Genesys is a clear set of rules, but also a clear articulation of how to "turn the dials" to borrow a frequently used term in Fate discussions.  A generic system by definition will lack a deep dive into a particular genre, but if the system is flexible and understandable, I won't have to wait for a source book to get busy filling in what's missing and extending the core to a particular setting.  Specifically, I would try to see how difficult it would be to take the content from Starfinder (classes, gear, and monsters, plus all the "fluff" details of the galaxy) and marry it to the system of Genesys.  If there's no way to do that well, then Genesys falls short as a generic setting builder.  I'm optimistic, but I just wish I knew more about it.

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I think the biggest thing for me going for Genesys as opposed to Fate... I am a very traditional gamer - GM runs world, Player runs character, the numbers on the sheet are whether or not a can do a task, the GM reveals what happens with task (as opposed to conflict resolution.

I tried Fate, simply because I wanted to try the opposite end of gaming. That and one of my favorite franchises is a Fate game (Dresden). Because of my traditionalist approach I could never feel comfortable with aspects adding to die roll - Just because I had "Worlds Greatest detective" and "protective of innocents" as aspect, it made it easier to use detective skills to find an innocent. It clashed badly. (note- this clash and problem is myself not the system). But playing Hero and Pathfinder for years, I want something different (hence trying Fate). Also tried Fantasy Age, Savage Worlds and WOIN. None of the were quite what I was after (WOIN would be a good PF replacement, but not "narrative")

Genesys skill are governed by skill and ability scores. And situational modifiers - that is pretty much what I am used to in traditional mode - but the results are done on the fly and in a narrativist mode.  To me that makes all the difference.

 

Between that and my love of Universal systems, because they allow you to play oddball, crossed genre, or mixed genre so easily, means I am really really positive about everything I see about Genesys.

Edited by Lordmhoram

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