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Kakita Renju

The Clans’ Views of Bushidō

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I see no reason in what you've quoted to say Compassion is not fulfilled through military protection. More than that, your quote doesn't say, hint, or lead one to how one should properly demonstrate Compassion. It just says one should seek opportunities to be compassionate. Following the "most widely respected and revered" form of Compassion in Rokugan cannot be chafing against Bushido.

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8 hours ago, BitRunr said:

I see no reason in what you've quoted to say Compassion is not fulfilled through military protection. More than that, your quote doesn't say, hint, or lead one to how one should properly demonstrate Compassion. It just says one should seek opportunities to be compassionate. Following the "most widely respected and revered" form of Compassion in Rokugan cannot be chafing against Bushido.

Here, the two sentences that count:

Quote

They develop a power that must be used for the good of all. 

Quote

They help their fellows at every opportunity. 

I mean, OK, the sentence structure is a little weird because they cut up a single sentence into three smaller ones for emphasis, but hey, Akodo wasn't writing a rocket assembly manual. 

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Are you saying that military protection cannot be considered help, or is not 'for the good of all'? Because I will disagree with that, if so.

You're not using the words you're presenting. You're reading something beyond that, and I won't know what that is until you share.

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9 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

Are you saying that military protection cannot be considered help

It is help, but only at one opportunity and not every one of them. And, of course, to be actually a help, you have to be 24/7 available with your military protection and offer it against every possible threat (including a fellow samurai and even your very own lord). 

Compassion as the tenet is about being Superman. If you ask Superman what he does for a living, he would most likely say "I use my power for the good of all and help my fellows at every opportunity!" Superman has compassion. 

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I'm pretty happy with the lion having compassion as their failing/ weakness whatever. Lion land peasants are some of the safest and best cared for in the empire.... but Lion outriders will still run them down if they don't clear the road ahead when the warning bell is rung.  

 bridges and roads are well maintained..... but also have criminals tossed into the cement of the foundations to transform them into guardian spirits. 

Leadership teaches that a samurai should not give orders they would not follow.... but also that their personal sense of right and wrong is to be sacrificed to their lord along with the rest of their self. 

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7 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

It is help, but only at one opportunity and not every one of them.

You're defining opportunity by type, rather than by event? I wouldn't.

Quote

And, of course, to be actually a help, you have to be 24/7 available with your military protection and offer it against every possible threat (including a fellow samurai and even your very own lord). 

We're talking about fulfilling Compassion as a tenet, not being the ultimate paragon of unceasing Compassion to the lower castes. Scale it down. Recalibrate for average honour, rather than perfect honour.

Quote

Compassion as the tenet is about being Superman. If you ask Superman what he does for a living, he would most likely say "I use my power for the good of all and help my fellows at every opportunity!" Superman has compassion. 

In Rokugan, treating heimin with respect is notable high honour stuff that the more spiritual clans do. You don't have to do that to follow Compassion. To protect them from physical harm is sufficient, and again, the "most widely respected and revered" form. As in, if Bob the samurai is rescuing heimin cats from trees and teaching them the Tao, heimin and other samurai are going to think, "Gee, that's very compassionate, but why isn't he off killing bandits/monsters/whatever is about to plague the village?"

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On 10/9/2017 at 1:51 PM, player2636234 said:

I think the problem is is that the 7 major clans aren't really defined as +1 virtue and -1 virtue. As far as the AEG timeline was concerned, Scorp were +Duty -everything else. Similarly, the Lion held each virtue to be a sacred truth, as Bushido was invented/divined by their own founding kami. It's a break from the old history of the setting in a big way, and we should expect to see people who liked the old setting disappointed when their favorite dynamics are changed.

I for one don't terribly mind AEG changing the fundamentals of the clans to fit whatever story they intend to tell with them, but this "forced balance" they have going on with the tenets seems... well, forced is the word, I guess.

You're not wrong, but about the Lion specificallly:

they might have paid lip service to all the tenets of Bushido, but you'd be hard pressed to show that the Lion in L5R gave a **** about compassion. 

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Of course the Lion care about Compassion, but they care a great deal more about all the other tenets.

They are the most warlike of all the Clans and in war the heimin suffer, yet they prioritize gaining glory and demonstrating their courage, duty and honor (and the rest).

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Every Lion fiction I have ever read was filled with characters that showed open contempt for compassion. The only Lion character I can recall ever being compassionate was Toturi. Has there ever been a fiction depicting a Lion not named Toturi treating a peasant kindly or showing mercy to an enemy?

Edited by Rawls

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Lets not forget that even though the lion were founded by blessed Akodo, the majority of the Lions are Matsu, a family founded by the proudest and most unforgiving personality of the Dawn of the Empire.

I usually portrays Akodos as compassionate and Matsus as arrogant and authoritarian.

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20 hours ago, Rawls said:

You're not wrong, but about the Lion specificallly:

they might have paid lip service to all the tenets of Bushido, but you'd be hard pressed to show that the Lion in L5R gave a **** about compassion. 

This is clearly a famous case of when the old AEG lore clashes with itself. It's clearly stated that Lion are the most prone to be honor hardasses but all the characters they ever wrote for Lion really didn't fit the stereotype. 

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11 hours ago, Nitenman said:

Lets not forget that even though the lion were founded by blessed Akodo, the majority of the Lions are Matsu, a family founded by the proudest and most unforgiving personality of the Dawn of the Empire.

I usually portrays Akodos as compassionate and Matsus as arrogant and authoritarian.

I'm like this to. Lion stereotypes are basically just the worst of the matsu family. The akodo are pretty well balanced, the ikoma love to party drink and brawl, and the kitsu are...... weird. 

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Meh. Akodo Kaneka didn't exactly ooze compassion.

In any case, I like how the Scorpion depicted in the fictions so far haven't been mustache-twirling sadists. Here's hoping that there'll be more Lion, other than Toturi, who avoid the callous, belligerent, moron stereotype. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 4:15 PM, BitRunr said:

You're defining opportunity by type, rather than by event? I wouldn't.

We're talking about fulfilling Compassion as a tenet, not being the ultimate paragon of unceasing Compassion to the lower castes. Scale it down. Recalibrate for average honour, rather than perfect honour.

In Rokugan, treating heimin with respect is notable high honour stuff that the more spiritual clans do. You don't have to do that to follow Compassion. To protect them from physical harm is sufficient, and again, the "most widely respected and revered" form. As in, if Bob the samurai is rescuing heimin cats from trees and teaching them the Tao, heimin and other samurai are going to think, "Gee, that's very compassionate, but why isn't he off killing bandits/monsters/whatever is about to plague the village?"

Only if Bobu's a bushi. 

If Bobu is a Courtier, no one expects him to be off waging war. 

Imagine if you will, a Dragon Courtier, sent as emissary to the Crab... he rescues peasant's roosters, and otehrwise makes the peasants happy and wise, and the local Daimyō, who has no time for Bobu, realizes that, since Bobu started this, his peasants are healthier, and wore willing to serve when called... All of a sudden, Miyamoto Bobu starts having value to Hida Ideyotsu. 

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2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Only if Bobu's a bushi. 

If Bobu is a Courtier, no one expects him to be off waging war.

That's debatable, but exists as a perspective that has crept into the setting over time. Still, Rokugan is steeped in nepotism and military positions that are just for show while your 'assistants' do all the actual work. Then there's the fact that you can get by as a general or other with the proper strategic mind - and that doesn't have a whole lot to do with secret techniques relating to how many times you can swing a sword per combat turn.

2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Imagine if you will, a Dragon Courtier, sent as emissary to the Crab... he rescues peasant's roosters, and otehrwise makes the peasants happy and wise, and the local Daimyō, who has no time for Bobu, realizes that, since Bobu started this, his peasants are healthier, and wore willing to serve when called... All of a sudden, Miyamoto Bobu starts having value to Hida Ideyotsu. 

You might as well suggest he helps plant the rice harvest and mends their clothes.

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1 hour ago, BitRunr said:

That's debatable, but exists as a perspective that has crept into the setting over time. Still, Rokugan is steeped in nepotism and military positions that are just for show while your 'assistants' do all the actual work. Then there's the fact that you can get by as a general or other with the proper strategic mind - and that doesn't have a whole lot to do with secret techniques relating to how many times you can swing a sword per combat turn.

You might as well suggest he helps plant the rice harvest and mends their clothes.

Those would be beneath him... but rescuing roosters from wolves or oni is definitely a samurai kind of thing to do...  even if it's done by outsmarting the oni...

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5 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Those would be beneath him... but rescuing roosters from wolves or oni is definitely a samurai kind of thing to do...  even if it's done by outsmarting the oni...

"Nobunaga-Sama, why are you stood in the clearing going 'kokekokko! kokekokko!' with chicken feathers glued to your armour and otsuchi?"

"It's.....a long story. Please don't tell the Daimyo."

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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