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Kakita Renju

The Clans’ Views of Bushidō

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Each clan has one or more tenets of Bushidō it views as less significant than the others. When a character chooses to forfeit honor due to defying the tenet their clan sees as less significant, halve the amount of honor they must forfeit (rounded up, to a minimum of 1). When a character is awarded honor as a result of making a personal sacrifice in the name of the tenet their clan sees as less significant, halve the honor they are awarded (rounded up, to a minimum of 1).
• Crab: Courtesy
• Crane: Courage
• Dragon: Duty and Loyalty
• Lion: Compassion
• Phoenix: Sincerity
• Scorpion: Righteousness, as well as Honor
• Unicorn: Courtesy

Some arent right.
Crane where known for "to do what we must" and sacrifice. i dont see crane bushi lacking Courage.
Duty and loyalty are the core of a samurai. i understand the unique view of the dragon and their struggle between duty and humanity, but they try o find another way.
No samurai is forgiven for betrayal.
 

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A lowering of honor forfeits or awards doesn't imply a lack of consequence to me.  A dragon who doubts a superior might still have to be punished, but the Clan is more concerned if he did it with Sincerity.  Their philosophical outlook helps them see that the world isn't always simple as following orders to the letter.  The Crane can still keep their head high if they order a needed military retreat, though they might be demoted or transferred.  They "do what they must" and so are pragmatic enough to try and stay alive a little more than other clans so they can KEEP doing what they must.

 

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Its not that the crane clan lacks courage, its that they don't see it as necessary or important compared to the other clans. A crane clan bushi is much more willing to retreat if it is the smart tactical choice while other clans will tend to get hung up on "but i need to be courageous."

I think their rather well done, as long as you don't over state them. Each tenant of the code is important, on at least some level, to each clan.

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5 hours ago, Kakita Renju said:

Crane where known for "to do what we must" and sacrifice. i dont see crane bushi lacking Courage.

Exactly so. "Do what we must" includes fall back, get the warning out, not reinforcing failure, and pragmatic battlefield choices other than the ever-tempting-to-samurai 'famous last stand'

Compare a Crane and a Lion commander both reacting to a subordinate's reply of "why did you fall back?" "we had no choice."

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Exactly so. "Do what we must" includes fall back, get the warning out, not reinforcing failure, and pragmatic battlefield choices other than the ever-tempting-to-samurai 'famous last stand'

Well ... it may or may not be now. "To Do What We Must" has, for the length of the ccg, been a polite turn of phrase for winning without regard for coming back alive.

http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=8499

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Courage isn't just staying to die on the battlefield. Courage is also taking a band of ennemies by yourself to protect a village, even again all odds, and accepting you might die even if successful. This was what made Kakita Tsuken keeper of fire.

Edited by Nitenman

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With all due respect, I feel like there's a significant tone of "how dare anyone suggest my favored Clan is in any way flawed!!!" going on here.

I think if we were being objectively honest, we could all go through that list, cherry pick Lore elements, and "disprove" every deficiency on the list.  That's not the point.

 

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6 minutes ago, WildKnight said:

 

"disprove" every deficiency on the list.  That's not the point...

 

So what's the point...? Please enlighten us... :)

And we all know and accept that clans are flawed (somewhat in a caricatural way).

It's not really cherry picking elements of lore, crane has since 1st ed been portrayed as a clan bent on heroism so its weird to suddenly see them described as being a clan for whom Courage is the "lesser" tenet.

Anyways, personnaly I know I'll get rid of this because I never thought that Clan Philisophy fully dictates a samurai stance on bushido and more, bushido is a core of Rokugani culture. Fleeing the battlefield is a failure of Bushido whatsoever the clan. It is Rokugan as a whole (and celestial order) judging you, not just your clan.

imagine the scene in heaven:

Lady Doji: look guys that samurai totally lacked compassion!

Lord Shiba: No big deal its one of Akodo's guys

Lord Akodo: Yup, don't really care

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Just now, Nitenman said:

So what's the point...? Please enlighten us... :)

 

 

The point is to provide another fulcrum for dramatic development. 

You say "since 1st edition the Crane Clan has been..." and only prove my point.  Again, we could all point to something from previously existing Lore that suggests that these are wrong.  HOWEVER, its hardly a new thing that FFG just came up with, that Crane are perceived as less likely to engage in battle, particularly as a first choice.  There's an element of "from a certain point of view" here, no doubt, but the Crane having their Courage questioned is hardly new.

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Its not really another way of drama development, its a level of granularity in characterization that in my opinion isn't necessary and seems forced.

And again, while I agree Crane are viewed in lore as not the most belligerous clan, its not by lack of courage.

by the way I like how you use previous common lore on crane to say that we shouldn't base ourselves on previous common lore on crane to judge this.

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1 minute ago, Nitenman said:

Its not really another way of drama development, its a level of granularity in characterization that in my opinion isn't necessary and seems forced.

And again, while I agree Crane are viewed in lore as not the most belligerous clan, its not by lack of courage.

by the way I like how you use previous common lore on crane to say that we shouldn't base ourselves on previous common lore on crane to judge this.

 

Yeah I'm not offended by the fact that you don't want to use the rule in its entirety, its meaningless to me.  I stand by my point about there being a significant degree of Clan Fandom going around, being misrepresented as "balance" or other issues, but I digress.

Your last point...  yeah, you got me there.  Fair enough.  My point was that there was "lore" to support both the positive AND negative positions, therefore it was a wash, but if it came across as me saying that only the lore that said they weren't particular courageous mattered, then that's on me.

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oh I agree with you bud. There is since the beta release a lot of Clan Fanboying or previous edition Fanboying (did I hear Mantis Clan...) that clouds judgement. I am myself going trough the process of trying to shed 15 years of bias to actually gauge 5th ed for what it is and not what I wished it should be.

And I indeed hope you are not offended for something trivial as this. Neither am I by you wanting to follow the rule. L5R your way :)

for many of us L5R is a passion. It might then lead to heated discussion and rather conservative position.

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1 hour ago, Nitenman said:

 

And I indeed hope you are not offended for something trivial as this

 

 

I find that people tend to take offense rather easily, and therefore people assume that others are offended rather easily as well.

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I feel like the main problem here is that the beta does not explain its thematic choices, just kinda shows them as-is and expects the reader to take them at face value without asking questions. Why does the Lion chaff at Compassion despite having a hard-on for Bushido as a whole? Did they all miss that Compassion is literally the first tenet of Bushido? Then under Compassion, it is mentioned that samurai don't take the virtue to its logical extension and protect the commoners from abuse... How so? Are the majority of samurai *ssholes? Or what? 

Because of the lack of explanation, there are thematic holes scattered all over the beta, from railroaded character emotions to cowardly Cranes. I suppose there are a lot more to say about these, but the writers hit the time/page limit and they cut the corners for seven extra pages of advancement tables or something :D

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True that. I think what we could need is designers explaining their thematic choices and design philosophy in short articles. 4th ed published regular designer diaries that help get the feel of where they wanted the game to go.

Edited by Nitenman

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Quote

Why does the Lion chaff at Compassion despite having a hard-on for Bushido as a whole?

The simple answer is, "They don't." Lion simply adhere to the most straightforward concept of compassion, and one shaped by a fundamental truth of Rokugan. Whichever clan protects the farmers controls the harvest.

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On 10/6/2017 at 4:16 PM, Sir Jolt said:

I think some things are being overstated.  It's not saying that the Crane aren't courageous (for example) but rather that, among all the tenets of Rokugani Bushido, Courage is the one that (as a whole) is likely to get the least push compared to the others.

I think the problem is is that the 7 major clans aren't really defined as +1 virtue and -1 virtue. As far as the AEG timeline was concerned, Scorp were +Duty -everything else. Similarly, the Lion held each virtue to be a sacred truth, as Bushido was invented/divined by their own founding kami. It's a break from the old history of the setting in a big way, and we should expect to see people who liked the old setting disappointed when their favorite dynamics are changed.

I for one don't terribly mind AEG changing the fundamentals of the clans to fit whatever story they intend to tell with them, but this "forced balance" they have going on with the tenets seems... well, forced is the word, I guess.

Edited by player2636234

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1 hour ago, player2636234 said:

I think the problem is is that the 7 major clans aren't really defined as +1 virtue and -1 virtue. As far as the AEG timeline was concerned, Scorp were +Duty -everything else. Similarly, the Lion held each virtue to be a sacred truth, as Bushido was invented/divined by their own founding kami. It's a break from the old history of the setting in a big way, and we should expect to see people who liked the old setting disappointed when their favorite dynamics are changed.

I for one don't terribly mind AEG changing the fundamentals of the clans to fit whatever story they intend to tell with them, but this "forced balance" they have going on with the tenets seems... well, forced is the word, I guess.

Yeah, I can see that.  It's always tricky when you're trying to make what had been fluff into a mechanic; especially when the fluff was somewhat morphic.

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If I were to think of the phrase "To do what I must," and order the clans from most applicable to least applicable I do not think Crane would rank very high.

Crab?  Certainly.  Scorpion?  Of course.  Phoenix?  Maybe, same with Dragon.

Crane?  not really.  The Daidoji for sure!  But there are many times when Asahina won't join a battle even in a loss because they believe more in pacifism than they do in the Crane winning every squabble.  

Courage is about boldly standing alone in the face of adversity.  The crane have a card for Height of Fashion, and Doji Gift Giver which both show how the Crane pay homage to civility which very much so includes bending to the times, as the times require.

I don't think they mean to say "the Crane are without courage" but more that if you returned to your lord and simply said your unit defended a villiage against countless foes, and have drenched the fields with their blood, and that you are the sole survivor - they would probably wonder why you didn't fall back and call for reinforcements...  We have Imperial Armies for dealing with bandits.  The Crane don't have as many bodies as the Lion, so each loss means more.

Edited by shosuko

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4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

That's chaffing at it. 

It's the core of the tenet from the perspective of Rokugani samurai. You can't chafe against something by upholding it's very core as defined by your culture and founder.

Quote

Compassion teaches samurai that, as the warrior elite of society, it is their duty to protect and guide the lesser folk of Rokugan. In its most obvious form, this means offering military protection, guarding the commoners against bandits, criminals, foreigners, and the monsters of the Shadowlands. It is this form of Compassion which is most widely respected and revered in Rokugan[...]

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5 hours ago, BitRunr said:

It's the core of the tenet from the perspective of Rokugani samurai. You can't chafe against something by upholding it's very core as defined by your culture and founder.

Your quote is not the core of the tenet. The core of the tenet is this:

Quote

Through intense training, the samurai becomes quick and strong. They are not as other people. They develop a power that must be used for the good of all. They have compassion. They help their fellows at every opportunity. If an opportunity does not arise, they go out of their way to find one.

There ain't anything else that matters. If you can't even stress yourself to heed six sentences then you are chaffing at the whole concept (chaffing as "intentionally making it worthless" or "knowingly defeating the point of it"). 

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