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Kakita Onimaru

Iaijutsu seems pointless

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6 minutes ago, Exarkfr said:

Using 2 opportunities to cause a critical strike is an option that comes from the Strike action, not any Attack action
( Strike is an Attack action, not the other way around)

If this is indeed the case than they need to update it (which they have said is coming anyhow, so I suppose we’ll just have to wait and see what the new version looks like.)

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It is done in the way it currently is so that you can't double crit on a Heartpiercing Strike while spending 2 opportunities to get an opportunity-fueled crit on top of the technique generated one, I believe. If it was a generic option, it would have to appear as "++ any" in the martial arts opportunity table.

 

EDIT

If you are interested, you probably can get up to 3 crits simultaneously: one from breaking targets Resilence, second from spending 2 Opportunities to crit, and third from applying Strife to the target if it's bleeding ATM.  

EDIT2

Actually, add a fourth - if the target is in Dangerous terrain, the Strife that pinged bleed will also ping Dangerous, which will cause 1 damage, which will trigger a crit from damaging the target past resilence. 

Edited by WHW

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10 minutes ago, WHW said:

It is done in the way it currently is so that you can't double crit on a Heartpiercing Strike while spending 2 opportunities to get an opportunity-fueled crit on top of the technique generated one, I believe. If it was a generic option, it would have to appear as "++ any" in the martial arts opportunity table.

 

EDIT

If you are interested, you probably can get up to 3 crits simultaneously: one from breaking targets Resilence, second from spending 2 Opportunities to crit, and third from applying Strife to the target if it's bleeding ATM.  

EDIT2

Actually, add a fourth - if the target is in Dangerous terrain, the Strife that pinged bleed will also ping Dangerous, which will cause 1 damage, which will trigger a crit from damaging the target past resilence. 

A double or more needs to be discussed in rules... it's not covered that I can see.

My expectation would be similar to the star wars approach - take the worst, add 1 per additional in that turn. 

The dangerous is a wonky bit, as it's going to occur as a result of the resist will be another hit of Strife... before the issue of bleeding.

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We had a self-bandaging roll that ended up plunging the character into spiral of 8 low severity crits. She survived, and actually avoided a permanent injury, but it was close - she ended up only 2 damage away from the unconscious. But she saved her leg! 

I believe crits are generated per instance of an effect that generates a crit, as there is nothing that limits a number of crits you can sustain at a time in the rules ATM.  

 

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Something ya might not of thought of    starting at range 4 moving to range 2 at start of turn with taking your stance then striking(if you go after someone) will mean they have not been able to hit you  
if you start at range 2 from 1 target and range 3 from another you can move after your strike to range 3 and 4 from same targets only having one of them able to get to you to strike

in a duel striking them 1 handed and then sheathing your sword is flashy good RP especially if you  draw blood. (remember 3 opportunities is what your looking for after 2 hits so you can crit them 

2 passes and you can make them quit using fire stance  if they do not resists the crit by injuring both arms they can not wield a weapon 

Personally  I think that the duel conditions need to be changed
First strike: the first person to actually  strike an opponent wins (at least 1 point of damage)

First Blood: First person to cause the bleeding condition or to have there opponent bow out

To Death: First Person to cause the opponent   to get the Unconscious Condition or dying condition if victor and if the opponent is not dead may chose to take their life or a life debt from them

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Not a designer, but i would guess that multiple critical strikes is not even possible(not possible as, does not make sense or match their intent), and that every attack using kata or not can crit with 2 opps. Otherwise you just made the "i attack" every turn an optimal option. With Hearpiercing strike you already have a crit, you are supposed to use your opp on nulling the enemy fitness roll.

if there is actually a need to specify that, they will simply do it with a few words.

Edited by Mobiusllls

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9 hours ago, Grodark said:

in a duel striking them 1 handed and then sheathing your sword is flashy good RP especially if you  draw blood. (remember 3 opportunities is what your looking for after 2 hits so you can crit them 

Don't waste opportunities after a Iaijutsu attack to sheathe your sword. Instead, freely stow it when you choose your stance.

You can't spend opportunities to crit with Iaijustu.

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Hmm I think they need to define the Action categories and put the opportunities under than that would apply to  actions taken by them categories like 

Attack action: * *:  If you succeed, inflict a critical strike on your target with severity
equal to your weapon’s deadliness.

Movement: * *:  you may move 1 range  before the action 

Support  * +:  add +1 to your tn to be hit

stuff like that might be usefull

then the crit would be available to all attack actions.

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On 10/22/2017 at 10:40 PM, Mobiusllls said:

Not a designer, but i would guess that multiple critical strikes is not even possible(not possible as, does not make sense or match their intent), and that every attack using kata or not can crit with 2 opps. Otherwise you just made the "i attack" every turn an optimal option. With Hearpiercing strike you already have a crit, you are supposed to use your opp on nulling the enemy fitness roll.

if there is actually a need to specify that, they will simply do it with a few words.

It's actually not overly hard to generate them.

You need 2 success and 2 opportunity to hit a crit. Certain characters can only take 4, and most will have 1 PR...

so, 2nd hit, get the 2 opp? he's at 6 and down he goes, having earned two crits.

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19 hours ago, Grodark said:

then the crit would be available to all attack actions.

Yes, there is a potential that it isn't available deliberately. Given that some attack actions cause criticals directly rather than damage, for example.

On 10/23/2017 at 6:40 AM, Mobiusllls said:

Not a designer, but i would guess that multiple critical strikes is not even possible(not possible as, does not make sense or match their intent), and that every attack using kata or not can crit with 2 opps. Otherwise you just made the "i attack" every turn an optimal option. With Hearpiercing strike you already have a crit, you are supposed to use your opp on nulling the enemy fitness roll.

Why? "**: cause a critical" is a specific opportunity of the Strike attack action (as opposed to the iaijutsu attack action, or flowing water attack action, or heartpiercing strike attack action or whatever).

Yes, that's an opportunity other attack actions don't get (normally - depends on the technique) but they tend to get something different instead.

  • Heartpiercing strike makes it harder to resist the critical
  • Flowing Water strike automatically causes bleeding
  • Rushing Avalance can cause damage even if you fail

etc, etc.

I don't see why not having the critical opportunity makes these techniques redundant.

On 10/22/2017 at 10:29 AM, WHW said:

In alpha build Scars used to heal, in current rules only Damaged Limb cycle of Conditions heals - Scars are permanent unless GM fiat. 

The beta talks about removing disadvantages with XP, but gives no guidance for how much it should cost.

 

Multiple critical strikes with a hit are definitely possible - the finishing blow does a double severity critical instead of dealing damage, and explicitely "other effects are resolved as normal" when the most common other effect is a potential critical strike.

 

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12 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

It's actually not overly hard to generate them.

You need 2 success and 2 opportunity to hit a crit. Certain characters can only take 4, and most will have 1 PR...

so, 2nd hit, get the 2 opp? he's at 6 and down he goes, having earned two crits.

Oh. i Know that critical strikes will happen at every turn. I'm just saying, i dont think 2 critical strike in the same... strike is not possible by RAI.  As a GM i wouldnt allow it, specially if the one reason you have to do that is "The book dont tell you that you cant" on my opinion, the book would need to tell you that multiple criticals strikes in one action is a thing. Then i probably would allow as raw, since this would make a major balance change i guess.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Why? "**: cause a critical" is a specific opportunity of the Strike attack action (as opposed to the iaijutsu attack action, or flowing water attack action, or heartpiercing strike attack action or whatever).

Yes, that's an opportunity other attack actions don't get (normally - depends on the technique) but they tend to get something different instead.

  • Heartpiercing strike makes it harder to resist the critical
  • Flowing Water strike automatically causes bleeding
  • Rushing Avalance can cause damage even if you fail

etc, etc.

I don't see why not having the critical opportunity makes these techniques redundant.

The beta talks about removing disadvantages with XP, but gives no guidance for how much it should cost.

Why? Because the only penalties that you can dishout on a enemy is through critical strikes. its better to nerf enemy rings than apply bleeding (Which can also be done through critical strikes.) Strike is the optimal technique of the game, if that is their intention, 2 sucesses and 2 opportunitys is actually more reliable than the 4 sucesses of heartpiercing strike (a technique that A:you cant move and B:you get dazed if you miss). If you are using a high lethality weapon (katana) and you are a Kakita, then strike action becomes a no brainer.

You can choose to cause damage even if you fail, i can take your rings out of the game by applying a nerf to you every turn. Choose whatever you think its best.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Multiple critical strikes with a hit are definitely possible - the finishing blow does a double severity critical instead of dealing damage, and explicitely "other effects are resolved as normal" when the most common other effect is a potential critical strike.

There is no logic in your argument. One attack 2 critical strikes? Sure you can fluff "one attack as actually a series of attacks and combinations that happened in one turn". sure.  There is nothing i can do to actual argue about that. only thing i have is "one attack, one critical strikes guys" this MECHANICALLY looks obvious to me.

But finishing strikes doenst even should enter on this discussion.  you are flat out wrong. The quote is "Any other effects of the Attack action are resolved as normal." What this means, is, on a finishing strike you dont do damage, you do double lethality critical strike, BUT, you can use katas,opportunitys or whatever as normal  on your finishing strike, those effects WORKS. you can use opportunity to lessen your strife during a finishing strike or whatever. No one is suggesting that you put a critical strike in your critical strike.

Finishing Blow is just a FREE TURN/ACTION, that you can only take the ATTACK action. Sure we can get overcomplicated and choose a kata or any other normal stuff that makes you dish out damage that you should not be able on this action. This is a RAW problem. but by no means this is the same as "if i do a Heartpiercing strike on a finishing blow, i will get a normal critical and a super critical lol".  I dont see this way at all. Finishing Blow is already an Critical Strike, you get no benefits doing an auto critical strike.

 

Edited by Mobiusllls
Finish Blow as Finish Strike lul (nicer name tough)

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i don't think iajutsu is pointless, as you can gain a free atack vs an enemy, let me explain.  you begin combat at range 2 you attack with iajutsu(water) and move one at the end of the action as per the movement rules: 

Movement
Each character is able to adjust their position on the battlefield slightly
each turn, either at the beginning of their turn or at the end of their turn.
When a character sets their stance (at the start of their turn), they may
move up to two range bands. At the end of their turn, if a character has
not moved already during their turn, the character may move up to one
range band.

And then you move another extra one as per the water stance:

After you make a check, you
may remove 2 strife, ready
or stow an item, or move one
range band.

So you end at range 4 of your enemy and out of range if he doesn't charge, have a range 2 weapon or iajutsu kata as well. 

The problem is that this doesn't works on duels according to the duels rules. 

Edited by Rubwen
forget the part of the duels

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Ok now you cant  ready weapons for free and iaijutsu rising blade is pretty much as good as a end game technique (to not say it appears broken good at first sight).

not pointless anymore i guess.

Edit:it seems you can actually draw on assessment, oh well.

Edited by Mobiusllls

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Why do you think it's powerful? It is a non scaling attack, permanently capped at your Katana dmg (so 4) and your Katana Deadliness (so 5). It is harder to hit than a normal Strike, and as reward, it offers you a Critical with Severity of 5 - which will get reduced by 1 or more at least 90% of the time. This technique is a trap in hands of a non-Kakita users.

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1 hour ago, WHW said:

Why do you think it's powerful? It is a non scaling attack, permanently capped at your Katana dmg (so 4) and your Katana Deadliness (so 5). It is harder to hit than a normal Strike, and as reward, it offers you a Critical with Severity of 5 - which will get reduced by 1 or more at least 90% of the time. This technique is a trap in hands of a non-Kakita users.

Not so, it just can't really be used alone outside duels.

Striking as Fire will boost the Crit Severity, Striking as Water will allow it to trigger on even the most heavily armored targets and performing the action in Air stance allows you to target injuries for one opportunity.

It also makes having a damage 5 enhance Katana very useful on the battlefield.

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13 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

It also makes having a damage 5 enhance Katana very useful on the battlefield.

Horizontal Blade does damage equal to deadliness, but no extra crit.

Rising Blade can do a crit, but does damage based on damage and without extra successes.

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17 hours ago, WHW said:

Why do you think it's powerful? It is a non scaling attack, permanently capped at your Katana dmg (so 4) and your Katana Deadliness (so 5). It is harder to hit than a normal Strike, and as reward, it offers you a Critical with Severity of 5 - which will get reduced by 1 or more at least 90% of the time. This technique is a trap in hands of a non-Kakita users.

If you succeed while performing a finishing blow, the deadliness of the critical strike you inflict is increased by your target’s strife instead of your bonus successes.

If both sides have to bet strife to go first and win the duel... well, you see how this scales.

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But to do this, you need:
- Have your katana unsheathed in time for Finishing Blow, AND also have a hand free for being able to draw it. Remember, you can't change grips at will! It also locks you out from using your own weapon to parry. EDIT: Or from using Crescent Moon Style, as Crescent Moon attack is specifically a Strike, so have fun kicking people.

- Hit your opponent with a TN3 attack that does not scale with bonus successes and will natively have lesser severity than just a two-handed katana strike (finishing blow with opportunity-less Rising Slice will give you 5x2=10 base severity, two-handed katana strike will give you (7x2)+Bonus=14+bonus severity. If you sharpened your katana, this will be 12 vs 16+bonus - so Rising Slice has a real chance of being dropped below 10 Severity due to Fitness, and barebone 2handed Strike even after Fitness check will have the opponent Unconscious or Dying (and both of these are currently capable of finishing the duel due to updated duel rules). Note that Fire Stance Strike Finishing Blow has a pretty big chance to get a lot of free scaling from Strife--> Bonus Successes. Bonus Successes are easier to get than Opportunities! 

- Note that a standard Strike only forces you to keep 2 dice - this means that you are less at risk of getting interrupted by their Finishing Blow due to Strife dice

- In order to get the Super Finishing Blow, you need to keep a hand that totals to 3 successes and 2 opportunities. There are basically three ways to get that: be able to keep 5 dice, get some explosions (that usually come with strife), or roll the RAREST result that only appears on skill dice and has 1/12 chance to appear, the Success+Opportunity. Hard? Definitely. Now imagine having to punch through Air Stance, Striking as Air, or Center bonuses (or all three at once). 

Your reward for bothering with all of this is upgrading your 10 Severity crit to something like 22 Severity crit. Big numbers, but remembering that under current duel rules, crits of severity 10+ all end the duel...

Edited by WHW

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To be fair, depends on composure.(The amount of severity you will earn) But i agree Fire Stance is great. Problem would be, being interrupted by another finishing blow while you are racking up strife.

26 minutes ago, WHW said:

- In order to get the Super Finishing Blow, you need to keep a hand that totals to 3 successes and 2 opportunities. There are basically three ways to get that: be able to keep 5 dice, get some explosions (that usually come with strife), or roll the RAREST result that only appears on skill dice and has 1/12 chance to appear, the Success+Opportunity. Hard? Definitely. Now imagine having to punch through Air Stance, Striking as Air, or Center bonuses (or all three at once). 

At 7k4 is pretty much common to get 3 sucesses and 2 opportunities. I do agree with you that at higher tn gets trickier. (But pretty much get trickier to everyone.)

 

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Not really. Lets suppose that the two bushis are fighting at rank 3 (Since you have heartpiercing strike). TN 4. Against someone in air stance TN 6. If you miss you get Dazed. Hard? picture your opponent using striking as air or center bonus.

Increasing TN to not be hit will be tough on everyone and every technique. Just go Strike with the regular tn 2 and go for a common crit with 2 opportunities every turn.

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