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Kakita Onimaru

Iaijutsu seems pointless

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7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Well, the "what the [censored] was that" I-win-at-iaijustu technique is (unsurprisingly) Strike With No Thought; which lets you not just draw and strike but spontaneously teleport yourself to the edge of accurate bow range and auto-critical someone in a single action. Of course, that's the school's rank 6 talent, on a pair with The Mountain Does Not Fall where you get to temporarily ignore minor inconveniences like, you know, being dead.

Wierdly, the 'free change grip. draw or stow' with Iaijutsu is best used to sheath your sword so you can immediately draw it again (hitting harder at longer range) which seems a weird way to go about it.

And yes, it is just a rank 1 kata. It's a slight shame, because a lot of the school freebies (like Lord Hida's Grasp) are rank 2 'bought early' abilities.

The thing is, drawing a sword should be a 'minor action', 'half action', 'manoeuvre' or 'incidental' in a system which doesn't allow for that; it's either an action or not, and asking a character to spend their entire action drawing a weapon seems ridiculous.

I really dont see a point. a rank 6 technique being good is not a fix to iaijutsu. its a rank 6. and like you said, it works more like "Teleport behinds you, nothing personnel kid" than... welll you guessed, iaijutsu. (And then you have problems, like using void, a pretty much lackluster ring this time compared to 4th ed, that dont really help most of your combat options.). And no. i wouldnt pay the same cost to sheat my weapon instead of just critical striking my opponent and possibly winning the fight. Specially if iam a kakita and my heritage is dealing damaging critical strikes (or just cutting your clothes). The only situation of where that may apply is against earth stance. that well... you really cant spend opportunities targeting your enemy anyway, might as well look cool at least.

And i agree, in the past you couldnt draw and attack unless you had Iaijutsu 3. (And then every single player character that was a bushi had rank 3) I dont think it was properly done on 4th edition, but it was so good that everyone had it, and only the duelist guy would go beyond iaijutsu 3. (You could house rule that your first attack in a turn you just drew your sword had to be with iaijutsu, that would actually be a cool way to resolve this).

On this edition having a technique that is about drawing your sword and attacking is not a really usefull thing. because everyone without the technique is actually able to do that. The technique gets more application at specific situations, like RichardBuxton said, and curiously, the Kakita is looking even better as archers then. Biggest ranged severity of the game and iaijutsu making an incentive to be used when you have more than one weapon to deal with it.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Mobiusllls said:

its a rank 6. and like you said, it works more like "Teleport behinds you, nothing personnel kid" than... welll you guessed, iaijutsu.

It's also a super-duper iaijutsu technique aside from the teleport effect: ignoring earth stance, armour, and the normal single-handed limitation. It's still perfectly useable in a duel, for example

But no, a rank 6, school locked technique is not a fix.

And yes, it's almost a second weapon technique: one of the best uses mechanically is your wakizashi snapping in and out as a secondary attack, which isn't an especially iaijutsu-esque effect.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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On ‎08‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:47 AM, sushicaddy said:

There are some people here who seem to be saying "if iaijustu is good it should be good for everybody".  Remember that dueling (or clashing in a battle) is what the Crane DO in battle.

I think Iaijutsu should be good for everybody in so far as anyone who learns it should be good at Iaijutsu (over and beyond those that don't know it). I do however feel that the Kakita School (for which Iaijutsu is mandatory) should gain increased benefit with it. In previous editions I felt this was a problem as this was the only game in town when it came to duels. Now it's not so as duels are more akin to 1 on 1 skirmishes and aren't exclusively Iaijutsu, therefore its ok if they're better at their niche. No one expects their Crane to be as good in heavy armour as a crab and the inverse should be true.

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4 hours ago, Bazakahuna said:

I think Iaijutsu should be good for everybody in so far as anyone who learns it should be good at Iaijutsu (over and beyond those that don't know it). I do however feel that the Kakita School (for which Iaijutsu is mandatory) should gain increased benefit with it. In previous editions I felt this was a problem as this was the only game in town when it came to duels. Now it's not so as duels are more akin to 1 on 1 skirmishes and aren't exclusively Iaijutsu, therefore its ok if they're better at their niche. No one expects their Crane to be as good in heavy armour as a crab and the inverse should be true.

If I really wanted to boost up Iaijutsu, the way to make kakitas better with it would be to increase the odds of causing criticals with it.

It should never be an automatic critical, because that (a) makes hearpiercing strike redundnant and (b) is [censored] hideous in a rank 1 kata, but maybe give it a one-opportunity option to cause a critical if you cause damage (as opposed to the two-opportunity cost with a normal strike)?

That makes it scarier, it's still not horrific because iaijutsu can't be combined with the double-handed deadliness bonus, and if criticals are more of a thing then the kakita's critical bonus triggers more often.

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On 10/7/2017 at 8:53 PM, Drudenfusz said:

Maybe Iaijutsu could allow the character to draw their weapon in a narrative scene without having everybody having to roll first combat scene initiative. Thus allowing the character to initiate a combat without prior warning, and thus not giving the opponent time to change their stance first. Just a thought.

You know, being an old-school RPGer, I just assumed this went without saying, lol.  Then I realized that the "Attack Action" doesn't exist outside of Skirmishes and Mass Battles, so technically you would have to spell this out in the rules. Good god, it would take a page or more worth of rules to explain "Surprise Attacks" in this system because it supplants the Assessment portion of the combat and requires an imposition on stances. Or it needs an entire "Ambush" section for Conflicts. Unless I missed something somewhere.  Having Ninja characters in the basic beta rules but not having clear rules for them to do ninja stuff is another oversight.

Though, on the flip side of it, in a lot of situations, this would be Dishonorable. Maybe not a problem for a Scorpion player with the kata, but probably somewhat problematic at times for a Crane.

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I think Iaijutsu Strike is fine, they should just supplement it with a Rank 2 Iaijutsu Style called "Falling Blossom Style" or something like that. Since Iaijutsu Strike lets you ready your weapon for free (in a one-handed grip), Falling Blossom Style would say something like the following: "When you make a Martial Arts [Melee] Attack with a Razor-Edged weapon in a one-handed grip, you may spend an opportunity to treat that weapon as if it were in a two-handed grip for the purpose of the attack and to stow it away after the attack. If you choose to spend more than one opportunity in this way, the weapon is treated as having +1 deadliness per opportunity spent beyond the first".

This would give every Samurai the ability to purchase Iaijutsu Strike and thus to be able to do Iaijutsu, but it would also allow there to be Samurai (such as the Kakita Duelist) who are particularly good at Iaijutsu and feel comfortable incorporating it into their overall fighting style.

 

Edit: Actually, since sheathing a weapon is already a 1 Opportunity thing one can do with Martial Arts checks (pg 98), Iaijutsu Strike would be balanced if you just replaced its current (redundant) 2 Opportunity sheathing to a 2 Opportunity critical strike like with the Strike action. This would make Iaijutsu do consistently more damage than Strike, but at the cost of using 1 Opportunity to sheath your weapon again each round.

Edited by Ikoma Sentan

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Drawing a weapon as part of an action isn't useless if you are taking actions when it isn't your turn.  For instance if someone triggers a Finishing Blow on the first turn of a duel (maybe they bid too much on the staredown or were already at the brink from prior provocation), Iaijutsu Strike lets you take advantage of it.

Besides Finishing Blows, there is also the Wait action for which there might be scenarios when you only want to draw your blade if the action triggers.  Iaijutsu Strike lets you defer the decision to draw.

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It really feels like it should have more Kakita school synergy as the school advantage is like increasingly deadliness. but since the ability increases/decreases critical severity rather than specifically giving an increase in Deadliness it doesn't really help. 

While that small change to the Kakita ability (deadliness rather than critical severity) it would make Iaijutsu much more powerful in an advanced Crane Duelist's hand and marginally useful for other bushi (as currently presented.) That seems about right.

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My proposed changes to Iaijutsu, based on some playtesting and some of the commentary here.

Iaijutsu

Description: The bushi draws their blade and cuts in a single, fluid motion.

Prerequisites: School rank 2

XP Cost: 2

Activation: As long as you have at least one sheathed Razor-edged weapon on your person, you are considered to have that weapon readied in a one-handed grip.

When you make a Martial Arts [Melee] check with a sheathed Razor-edge weapon, you may draw it as part of that action. Replace the weapon's Damage with its Deadliness if you do so. Additionally, you may spend in the following way:

[*] - If you succeed, increase the Deadliness of a Razor-edged weapon you have drawn this turn by 1.

[**] - After you have resolved your action, sheath one Razor-edged weapon you have drawn this turn.

 

Opinions? Effectively, this makes a character focused on Iaijutsu all about the Deadliness, but they have to effectively sheath their weapon every turn to keep using this Technique. It complements the Kakita Bushi school's buff to Deadliness, and can very quickly turn a Duel into a very deadly encounter.

Edited by sndwurks

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I would write the prequsites  slightly different to avoid 2 handed razor-.edged weapons to be able to exploit the lack of restrcitions to 1 handed weapons.
So lets reword it like this:

Iaijutsu

Description: The bushi draws their blade and cuts in a single, fluid motion.

Prerequisites: School rank 2, only useable with a razor- edged weapon that has the one handed option

XP Cost: 2

Activation: As long as you have at least one sheathed Razor-edged weapon, that can be held in one hand, on your person, you are considered to have that weapon readied in a one-handed grip.

When you make a Martial Arts [Melee] check with a sheathed Razor-edge one handed weapon, you may draw it as part of that action. Replace the weapon's Damage with its Deadliness if you do so. Additionally, you may spend in the following way:

[*] - If you succeed, increase the Deadliness of a Razor-edged weapon you have drawn this turn by 1.

[**] - After you have resolved your action, sheath one Razor-edged weapon you have drawn this turn.

Why am I doing this? Because when you say don´t give the limitation can be held in one hand you also can do the technqiue with a naginata as the only restriction is that is has to be sheated,
as the part" you are concidered to readied it in a one handed grip is not a restriction but modification and therefore does not prevent a player from using this technique with 2 handed razor-edged weapons like a naginata.

Edited by Teveshszat

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Yes I can see the problem with that. Disarming the sword out of its sheath looks kina odd.

lets try to get it out.

Iaijutsu

Description: The bushi draws their blade and cuts in a single, fluid motion.

Prerequisites: School rank 2, only useable with a razor- edged weapon that has the one handed option

XP Cost: 2

Activation: As an attack action, using one sheathed, razoedged and handed weapon, you may

make a Martial Arts [Melee] check targeting one individual in range 1. You draw and ready your weapon in a one handed grip,
If the attack hits replace the weapon's Damage with its Deadliness if you do so.
Additionally, you may spend in the following way:

[*] - Increase the Deadliness of a Razor-edged weapon you have drawn this turn by 1.

[**] - After you have resolved your action, sheath one Razor-edged weapon you have drawn this turn.


Now that resolves the problem that came up with the concidered rdy.

 

Edited by Teveshszat

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5 hours ago, sndwurks said:

[**] - After you have resolved your action, sheath one Razor-edged weapon you have drawn this turn.

As others have pointed out that, is pretty much already available as a Any[*]+ expenditure on any Martial Skill check.

Edited by Ultimatecalibur

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so just cut it or does anyone has a good idea what shoudl be the replacement?
As my only Idea of now is

[***] - If you suceed you hit twice instead of once with your attack.

Edited by Teveshszat

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9 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

As others have pointed out that, is pretty much already available as a Any[*]+ expenditure on any Martial Skill check.

Good point.

Perhaps this, then?

[**] - You may move 1 Range band after or before resolving your Action.

This would allow you to start at Range 3, close to Range 1 before the attack, then withdraw to Range 2 after the attack. It might capture the more cinematic "Draw and cut you down as I step past you!" moment?

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The existing action is fine: it gives you a damage 5, range 1-2 attack with a katana, which is unarguably, unambiguously better than a normal attack with a katana.

The problem is the opportunity costs not really being of any value.

 

 

I might suggest changing * to "If you succeed, inflict a critical strike with a severity equal to the weapon's deadliness."

(Note that the "**: If you succeed, inflict a critical strike with a severity equal to the weapon's deadliness." is a property of the strike action, not attacks in general, so as it stands Iaijutsu cannot inflict a critical strike, and can never finish a duel in one blow, which seems a bit laughable since that's the whole dratted point of the technique)

That gives Iaijutsu:

  • a clear advantage over a 'normal' strike action (a critical strike requiring one opportunity and two success is within reach of a 'normal' roll)
  • a clear disadvantage over a 'normal' strike action (requiring a sheathed weapon with the razor-edged trait)
  • a clear disadvantage relative to Hearpiercing Strike (because it still needs two success and an advantage to do so and still risks damaging your weapon)
  • a clear advantage over heartpiercing strike (because it still does damage and has a range increase inherent to the action)

Given that these Iaijutsu, Strike (via Crescent Moon Style) and Hearpiercing Strike are the three 'default' techniques you'd expect from a Kakita Duellist (until you get to the 'way of the warrior opening montage' Strike With No Thought, anyway), there's a reason to use each of them.

Increasing deadliness, reducing protection can both be done with low-level opportunity kata so let's not make them redundant.

 

I'm less sure what the ** opportunity should be. Maybe allow you to resolve the strike in a double-handed grip instead?

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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From the week 3 email:

Iaijutsu

Related to duels, Iaijutsu is another matter people care a lot about, and we want to get it right, so we’re going to flesh it out a bit more. Instead of being represented by single technique, Iaijutsu will be represented a number of techniques representing different draws, while the rules of the single-draw duel will be covered more deeply in duel rules themselves.

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Like i said before. It is indeed pointless because anyone can draw and attack (The whole point of Iaijutsu) and due to fact that it seems they changed how the formal and common duel of the setting begins (and mostly ends) with a quick iaijutsu draw.

On how to make Iaijutsu a thing, They seem to be in the right direction, if we go back a few pages on this discussion, we mostly believed that there would exist more than 2 techniques focusing on Iaijutsu (Strike with no Thought and Iaijutsu are the ones currently) they seem to be going for that.

On the Duel front...i still dont know what they want. Did the setting change? is their duel system wrong or its right (in relation to the canon setting.) i dont know. i actually dont know much about the state of the world after the reboot. In the past we always said that. Yeah Two unicorns might race each other(on horse) to solve disputes, Shugenja has their own casting/wizard duel. Crabs may resolve with Sumo. But if you go on a Rokugan Court and tries to settle a matter that doesnt include just your clan. it becomes a iaijutsu duel, be it to the death or not.

Until i get to understand why Duels are now like this, i cant really say if adding rules for single-draw duel on a system already in place its good or not.

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For people complaining about kakita not being good duelists, they get access to crescent moon style at rank 1, which lets them get a free strike whenever anyone misses them while in center stance. Given that all kakita duelists start with air 3, this could mean that the TN to hit them is through the roof. 

Three things: Iaijutsu is ‘as an attack action’, so I assume all standard attack action opportunities are present (such as critical strikes). The kata provides new opportunities, no where does it say it removes attack’s opportunities.

Two: While it’s only a benefit of 1 damage to a katana, it benefits other weapons more substantially. Further, it has a benefit of reach.

Three: In a duel, wounds are scored for points. So dealing an extra wound is at least a 1 point advantage. Sure, maybe you’ll want to draw your sword if you feel like the death blow is imminent (so you can strike with both hands). Just like you won’t always be in the correct stance to use ‘striking as x’, you won’t always decide to use Iaijutsu. That doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me.

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6 hours ago, DarkIxion said:

Three things: Iaijutsu is ‘as an attack action’, so I assume all standard attack action opportunities are present (such as critical strikes). The kata provides new opportunities, no where does it say it removes attack’s opportunities.

Using 2 opportunities to cause a critical strike is an option that comes from the Strike action, not any Attack action
( Strike is an Attack action, not the other way around)

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