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Kakita Onimaru

Iaijutsu seems pointless

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32 minutes ago, WHW said:

You can make people suffer Strife with Fire. Remember, if you make these options "Kakita specific", you are removing them from other characters. 

They need not be mutually exclusive, a Kakita specific technique would likely be an action and use successes or offer it as an opportunity spend, but could be limited to the use of the fire ring,  and only apply under certain circumstances, like a duel. Fire can be used anytime you use the fire ring and works  with opportunity. I would expect other clans to have their own proprietary techniques, some may very well perform a similar task.

Edited by Crimson_red

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He is not removing options, he is asking for techniques that give advantage to Kakita in duel (Similar to techniques that make a Shiba a better Yojimbo and a Hida better at hunting a giant oni. I also hope for a few exclusive dual wield techniques to the Mirumoto, as an example.)

And yeah fire opportunity is a strong thing to "fish" in duels.

Answering Crimsom_Red:
When you make the Assesment check (initiative) both duelists decide their stance (if you roll earth you are in earth.) The bonus of being first in the first turn, i guess its that you can attack before the opponent makes a defensive action (like center) himself. So if you think you can damage him well, i suppose its a nice starting advantage. 

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2 minutes ago, Mobiusllls said:

Answering Crimsom_Red:
When you make the Assesment check (initiative) both duelists decide their stance (if you roll earth you are in earth.) The bonus of being first in the first turn, i guess its that you can attack before the opponent makes a defensive action (like center) himself. So if you think you can damage him well, i suppose its a nice starting advantage. 

Ah, thank you, I now see where it says that in the main Assessment section. So that works well

If Iaijutsu added a support action to the Assessment that would be the place to put.

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I can't help but feel there's an element to the game we haven't seen yet. Perhaps it's situations where drawing a sword would be impossible before your action, such as dismounting a horse. 

The aditional range it provides you, as well as the damage based on Deadlines, both seem to be areas where unique rules could improve on that.

For one the range allows you to hit an opponent even when you are PINNED. 

The equipment section seems very sparse too, so perhaps there's ways to improve your weapons with time. There could also be techniques that increase the Deadliness of your weapon in the right circumstances.

 

If we are seeing the full picture then it definitely feels like a token effort to name such a technique. They slapped something together that's useful in some edge cases and that's it.

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There are some people here who seem to be saying "if iaijustu is good it should be good for everybody".  Remember that dueling (or clashing in a battle) is what the Crane DO in battle.  They don't have cavalry like the Unicorn, they don't have fire breathing monks like the Dragon, they don't have battle-shugenja like the Phoenix, they don't have the best soldiers and strategists in Rokugan like the Lion, the don't have a network of spies, informants, saboteurs and ******* ninja like the Scorpion, and they don't have heavily armored berserkers like the Crab.  Dueling and clashing with a high rate of success is the only thing that keeps the Crane from always getting steamrolled by everyone else when it comes to battle.  The crane SHOULD have an advantage when it comes to dueling.  The prowess of Kakita duelists is in all of the fiction, and mechanics should reflect the fiction.  It should not make sense for iaijutsu to be clearly superior to regular two-handed kenjutsu for all other clans (or Niten for the Dragon).  Likewise fighting with the Niten style should be clearly superior for Mirumoto duelists, but not for everyone else.  We only see the Kitsuki and Togashi schools in this preview, but I would hope that "niten" is not just a rank one kata that everyone can take that is only useful in some edge cases that you might not ever see.


Iaijutsu is only useful when you are surprised by someone

Iaijutsu locks you into a one-hand grip, which severely handicaps the deadliness of your weapon, which is of prime importance in a duel

Iaijutsu removes the ability to get a critical strike with 2 opportunity, an ability that is vital in both skirmishes and a duel

Iaijutsu does not synergize with the "Way of the Crane" technique, and the way of the crane affects critical strikes, as iaijutsu makes critical strikes much less common.

Iaijutsu is mandatory for all Crane duelists.





 

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Maybe Iaijutsu could allow the character to draw their weapon in a narrative scene without having everybody having to roll first combat scene initiative. Thus allowing the character to initiate a combat without prior warning, and thus not giving the opponent time to change their stance first. Just a thought.

Edited by Drudenfusz

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9 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

The equipment section seems very sparse too, so perhaps there's ways to improve your weapons with time.

I think the 'Improve' approach in Artisan is able to improve the stats of items.  Once per item IIRC?

BTW, every time I read the topic of this thread, the first thing that springs into my head is "Of course!  In a iaijutsu duel you're meant to be cutting the enemy not stabbing them!"

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15 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

If we are seeing the full picture then it definitely feels like a token effort to name such a technique. They slapped something together that's useful in some edge cases and that's it.

I highly doubt this is the full picture. Iaijutsu as it stands is only a Rank 1 technique.

We are missing Clan Weapons. A Kakita Blade being 6 deadliness instead of 5 much improves Iaijutsu.

No technique in the beta requires any prerequisite techniques currently. I can easily see them including a fair number of "Advanced" Iai techniques at various ranks.

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A Kakita blade is something completely rare. Its a honor to have one.

its not really a fix to iaijutsu. (as it stands right now).

But yeah im hoping for even more techniques and clan specific techniques. (which is kind of bad since we wont be able to playtest and give balance feedback on these)

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You can make your Katana Durable by making an Earth TN1 check to maintain it and spending one Earth Opportunity, and make it Deadly by making Air TN2 check and spending an Air Opportunity. You can also spend an opportunity on the earth check to make the Air check TN1 instead of TN2. This is easily doable without Smithing, and Kakita can do it even better because they start with smithing. 

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Yeah i know. worst part to me is making plated armor with resistance 6 and without cumbersome. ( I actually played with some house rules on 4thed so artisan characters could craft and upgrade equipment. while its great that we have something on RAW, its looking too simple.)

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3 hours ago, Mobiusllls said:

A Kakita blade is something completely rare. Its a honor to have one.

Which would be a a reason for them to be a rarity 9+.

4 hours ago, Mobiusllls said:

its not really a fix to iaijutsu. (as it stands right now).

The rank 1 Iaijutsu Kata doesn't really need to be fixed. It is a very good base to build off right now.

The problem is people wanting a 3 xp Kata to be able to instant kill for no further investment.

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Yeah. But i will repeat what i said. we can give feedback on what we have. Not on what we suppose we will get

They could launch the game with this being the only iaijutsu option. Does it seems mostly pointless to you now? There are plenty of 3xp kata that are much more useful. (warrior resolve and pretty much all of the striking as.)

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Iaijutsu kata enables an entire archetype of always-kataning warrior. It's ok. If you sharpen your sword, it increases your basic damage by 50%. It makes you dangerous with wakizashi and knife, too. Even with broken bottles and sharp chopsticks. The opportunity cost is that you wont be able to use OTHER weapon specific kata. 

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Now, I might be wrong but I feel like the book is trying to make Iaijutsu a Kata outside of a duel. That a duel is assumed to be using Iaijutsu unless it's being used for shugenja or sparring practice. Whether it hit the mark or not I can't say, I'm not done reading everything. But it does mean people without the kata can still duel, since they can draw and attack, they just don't get the bonus range or bonus damage.

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2 hours ago, llamaman88 said:

Now, I might be wrong but I feel like the book is trying to make Iaijutsu a Kata outside of a duel. That a duel is assumed to be using Iaijutsu unless it's being used for shugenja or sparring practice. Whether it hit the mark or not I can't say, I'm not done reading everything. But it does mean people without the kata can still duel, since they can draw and attack, they just don't get the bonus range or bonus damage.

Sorry. I dont really understand what you are saying. And i can be wrong, but nowhere in the book i have found one paragraph that says that duels are fought with iaijustsus or even by drawing your katana. Duels is just a one x one where you will deal with legal issues and the rules work as much for wrestling as it works for spears or swords.

By the book, To First Blood is the main way to settle issues. So the focus of the duel mechanics is to make a nice fight between two persons (With multiple strikes) instead of the Duel of the fourth edition where you had exactly one roll to make it or break it. you either strike first and win or you lose. There you used Iaijutsu. On this edition, you can use whatever you want, specially since "Melee skils" is a thing, not Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and etc...

A one x one fight that is not a duel is called a Clash... and is almost the same thing as a Duel.

Edited by Mobiusllls

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It says duels are highly ritualized, so I'm not counting Iaijutsu as we knew it out. I don't know, maybe the duels have moved away from the Sanjuro finale style duels of the past to duels more like the one early on in 7 Samurai. I can't say for sure, because we have a Beta test, missing lots of the fluff elements and really raw in some places. I know in the fictions there was a duel, and both participants used Iaijutsu. If it's the latter, 7 Samurai style, people must still rely on the Iaijutsu techniques commonly enough for that to be highlighted in the fiction. So maybe Kakita do start with their sword sheathed, while say a Matsu or Hida already has their weapon out. But I'm not sure that's the intent of the duel system. I hope we just have the bare bones of a more fleshed out system so we can use it in the multiple ways that are suggested.

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I dont like  the actual Duel system in virtue of being completely different from what i knew. That is fluff wise.

Talking mechanics, most bushis  will use one Katana in a duel. Iaijutsu for them its literally useless since you can ready one weapon when you assume a stance.  Sure. you can fish that one extra damage of the Iaijtsu. But like i said. I dont see myself buying something just for one damage instead of a cool benefit or option. (i know, i know it does give you range 2 despiste not moving you.)

Curiously, the ones who have reason to buy iaijutsu as it stand are the dual wielders. they can ready the wakizashi, draw the katana and have both weapons out. Why they would need to waste one opportunity to draw a second weapon is something that beats me. Maybe im wrong at something and someone can point out?

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13 hours ago, Mobiusllls said:

A Kakita blade is something completely rare. Its a honor to have one.

its not really a fix to iaijutsu. (as it stands right now).

But yeah im hoping for even more techniques and clan specific techniques. (which is kind of bad since we wont be able to playtest and give balance feedback on these)

Well, the "what the [censored] was that" I-win-at-iaijustu technique is (unsurprisingly) Strike With No Thought; which lets you not just draw and strike but spontaneously teleport yourself to the edge of accurate bow range and auto-critical someone in a single action. Of course, that's the school's rank 6 talent, on a pair with The Mountain Does Not Fall where you get to temporarily ignore minor inconveniences like, you know, being dead.

Wierdly, the 'free change grip. draw or stow' with Iaijutsu is best used to sheath your sword so you can immediately draw it again (hitting harder at longer range) which seems a weird way to go about it.

And yes, it is just a rank 1 kata. It's a slight shame, because a lot of the school freebies (like Lord Hida's Grasp) are rank 2 'bought early' abilities.

The thing is, drawing a sword should be a 'minor action', 'half action', 'manoeuvre' or 'incidental' in a system which doesn't allow for that; it's either an action or not, and asking a character to spend their entire action drawing a weapon seems ridiculous.

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19 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I still like the narrative flavour of:

I used my bow last turn, now the enemy is closer I'll sling it over my back as I take on Water Stance. Then I'll use Iaijutsu to draw and Strike, catching the enemy off guard.

Its very specific in its application, but a cool trick to pull off. 

True; allowing you to stow one weapon and draw another for free is useful, because otherwise you essentially either take two turns to change weapon (because you can ready or stow one weapon per turn) or you have to drop on the floor rather than stow it properly.

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