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Mirumoto Kuroniten

Mantis is real!

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Just to keep everyone grounded. All we know at this point is that they are in the story. 

That said, I think it would be a mistake not to include them (and they've certainly been teasing about it enough). 

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17 minutes ago, DarwinsDog said:

Just to keep everyone grounded. All we know at this point is that they are in the story. 

That said, I think it would be a mistake not to include them (and they've certainly been teasing about it enough). 

By that logic it would be a mistake not to include the shadowlands as a faction.  They've been teased more than the mantis have.  The Mantis have what, a passing remark in the initial crane fiction and a confirmation in an interview that they exist in the setting?  The shadowlands have actually shown up in the crab intro fiction, have had passing remarks in the most recent fiction, alluded to in the Meishodo fiction (ruby of iuchiban), and appear to have a card in the first dynasty pack.

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The difference between the Mantis vs the Shadowlands as factions are how they would work within the LCG.  The Mantis (Or Minor clans in general) fit within the whole idea of Political/Military conflicts, as well as the concept of Honor.  The Shadowlands do not.  Does it make sense that you can honor/dishonor your Oni?  How about sending those Oni to court to get stomped by the Doji Whisperer as she spreads rumors about the Oni's affair with the Favored Niece?  How about Trolls, Ogres, or Goblins in court?  They just don't really work as an independent faction.

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48 minutes ago, Mirith said:

The difference between the Mantis vs the Shadowlands as factions are how they would work within the LCG.  The Mantis (Or Minor clans in general) fit within the whole idea of Political/Military conflicts, as well as the concept of Honor.  The Shadowlands do not.  Does it make sense that you can honor/dishonor your Oni?  How about sending those Oni to court to get stomped by the Doji Whisperer as she spreads rumors about the Oni's affair with the Favored Niece?  How about Trolls, Ogres, or Goblins in court?  They just don't really work as an independent faction.

ban of Shadowlands in the LCG game! cross your fingers

edited: Mantis is a clan that add a lot to the Lore of L5R, it makes sense in the story (not like another dark clan unnecessary ...)

 

Edited by Arcendo A

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1 hour ago, Mirith said:

The difference between the Mantis vs the Shadowlands as factions are how they would work within the LCG.  The Mantis (Or Minor clans in general) fit within the whole idea of Political/Military conflicts, as well as the concept of Honor.  The Shadowlands do not.  Does it make sense that you can honor/dishonor your Oni?  How about sending those Oni to court to get stomped by the Doji Whisperer as she spreads rumors about the Oni's affair with the Favored Niece?  How about Trolls, Ogres, or Goblins in court?  They just don't really work as an independent faction.

We already know there is a goblin coming in the first expansion so we are getting the first shadowlands card WELL before our first Mantis. Any attempt to argue that a faction "Does not work" is not only silly, but completely without faith that design couldn't make them work. Especially because mechanics already exist to balance things like these concerns. Sheesh, every clan has been radically redesigned from the ground up and SUDDENLY the magic runs out?  

Its ok to not like them, but acting as if they "just don't really work" is just plain silly.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

We already know there is a goblin coming in the first expansion so we are getting the first shadowlands card WELL before our first Mantis. Any attempt to argue that a faction "Does not work" is not only silly, but completely without faith that design couldn't make them work. Especially because mechanics already exist to balance things like these concerns. Sheesh, every clan has been radically redesigned from the ground up and SUDDENLY the magic runs out?  

Its ok to not like them, but acting as if they "just don't really work" is just plain silly.

 

 

Its not that I don't like them, I'm fine with and wholly support non-faction cards being printed, since that can allow for tainted shenanigans in the story.  I fully want a neutral character card that is an 7/- Oni and has "Lose 3 honor and sacrifice a character as an additional cost to play this character".  However, it should have a dash for political.  So should a vast majority of Trolls, Oni, Ogre and Goblins.  I don't see a faction working that is full of Dash characters all for one conflict type.

But given the whole even more inherent concept of honor being tied into the game, trading honor doesn't really make sense either.  How do you dishonor the Shadowlands?  Why should they be able to trade honor to get cards?  In the CCG, by the time dishonor became a thing, the Spider Clan at least could be dishonored out, and had things to resist it off their own cards, but they were immensely weak to it from other factions, since not only did you get a head start on it by being the lowest honor clan, your personalities didn't really have personal honor to use to naturally resist the constant honor drain from your opponent. 

However, given that cards get balanced around such honor costs, is something like "Don't lose honor from Shadowlands card you control" easily balanced around?  Doesn't that make the Shadowlands faction inherently more powerful then, since they ignore a key balancing cost to action?  Or the cards themselves are far to weak to play without such an ability, making them coasters except for Shadowlands?

I don't think they work as a faction.  I'm not saying FFG might not try it, but it seems like such a bad idea.

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1 hour ago, Mirith said:

Does it make sense that you can honor/dishonor your Oni?    How about Trolls, Ogres, or Goblins in court? 

Actually yes.  Oni no Pekkle and other infiltrators have to care about their honor and or dishonor.  For the Shadowlands Denizens that don't care about honor, they get 0 glory like every other character in the game that doesn't care about honor or dishonor

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How about sending those Oni to court to get stomped by the Doji Whisperer as she spreads rumors about the Oni's affair with the Favored Niece?

Again, this makes perfect sense for Pekkle no Oni and other shadowlands infiltrators.  They appear in court all the time.

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How about Trolls, Ogres, or Goblins in court? 

So you give them a '-' in politics like the other character cards that have no business in court

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They just don't really work as an independent faction.

I think they work perfectly fine.  I'm not saying they are going to ever be one, but I'd say that they have just as much as an equal chance as any other faction that isn't currently in the game.

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All FFG needs to do is insert a different keyword for Shadowlands that represents the same mechanic as honor but has a flavor that represents the darkness.  This task is light lifting from a design perspective and I just thought of it off the top of my head.  Imagine what a team that redesigned an entire complex game like L5R can do with two years to accomplish an integration of Shadowlands...

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3 minutes ago, Mirith said:

But given the whole even more inherent concept of honor being tied into the game, trading honor doesn't really make sense either.  How do you dishonor the Shadowlands?  Why should they be able to trade honor to get cards?

You realize that the honor dial is supposed to be YOUR honor in the game? Its your personal honor that is being counted down. So the Oni you have aren't trading honor for cards, YOU are as you rely on your hidden conflict cards over playing what is plain to see, the more honorable action. 

Everything else is just imagining and forcing an older game's mechanics into a game that really is far more open to design and doesn't need to follow the old game.  ****, this is the game that made Crane into an aggro deck just like the lion, but they go for political vs military, that's a pretty big change. The new goblin doesn't cause honor loss. So any clan could put a tainted creature into play with no honor cost. An honorable Lion Samurai can fight alongside a despicable goblin, why? Because the mechanics already punish a lion for playing a character with no synergistic keywords.

 

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2 hours ago, JRosen9 said:

By that logic it would be a mistake not to include the shadowlands as a faction.  They've been teased more than the mantis have.  The Mantis have what, a passing remark in the initial crane fiction and a confirmation in an interview that they exist in the setting?  The shadowlands have actually shown up in the crab intro fiction, have had passing remarks in the most recent fiction, alluded to in the Meishodo fiction (ruby of iuchiban), and appear to have a card in the first dynasty pack.

I... I never mentioned shadowlands? I can see them working as a faction too, but this is a thread about the Mantis clan. The teasing was also a reference to the RPG rules which have several mentions of Mantis in the context of how they would play within the system.

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