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Tashiro

Lethality?

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21 minutes ago, Tashiro said:

That's a biased question there.  The story doesn't have to be 'beloved'.  I'm also not going for a 'beloved' tale.  I

 

 

Okay, find me ANY tale where what I described occurs.

You say the story doesn't have to be beloved, but you're missing the point.  The reason I included the word "beloved" is because, in theory, an RPG is supposed to be an enjoyable experience for everyone involved.  The best games are stories we tell again and again.  Hence...  "beloved." 

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25 minutes ago, Tashiro said:

 

I mean, seriously, this is the game that gave us Tomb of Iuchiban, which had a hard cap on how many people could, in theory, survive.  (At the very last room, where the PCs can teleport to safety, there is a hard limit on how many can go.  Too many samurai in the party, and some get left behind.  Presuming, of course, anyone actually survived to get to the last room.)

 

Never had anybody actually finish Tomb of Iuchiban...  in two of my three attempts at running it, the players quit specifically because of the arbitrary deaths involved.

HOWEVER...  your argument actually goes against your own point.  Dying at the end of the tomb is not a pointless, anonymous death.  Its as heroic as it gets.  The ones who stay behind die so that the others can go on to complete the mission.  Their deaths are anything but pointless.

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One of my players in a short single player adventure 3e was supposed to redeem his family name in a glorious quest. A pack of wolves killed him in a forest. No funerals, no one to mourn him.

Edited by Nitenman

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On 10/06/2017 at 2:00 PM, Mobiusllls said:

How often do you get critical strikes on this system? On newbies samurais and on rank 5 samurais?

Because a funny thing is that "Striking as fire increase your severity!!!" except that it only last one turn, meaning that it only works if you increase severity on the first attack and then get a critical on the second. i dont think that a player has this kind of knowledge (Im gonna roll a critical on the next strike, so i will use this turn to buff it!). And i mean, if you strike as fire and get 2 opportunities, why would you increase your severity by 2 and risk losing it in the next turn instead of hurting your opponent? Seems better to just hit a critical strike and make your opponent roll for it, put pressure on him.

I should point out, that while striking as fire is not consistent. The others striking as are pretty much it. You can plan when to use it and how to use it.

Also, you know you are going to land criticals when someone goes past their wound threshold. If you want someone egregiously dead, deadliness+incapacitated bonus+striking as fire bonus next turn might be better than an unmodified deadliness critical now, especially versus a high fitness target and/or when wielding a high damage low deadliness weapon like a tetsubo or otsuchi.

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Striking as fire seems to be meant for a Mirumoto bushi who dual wields. There are other Kata that seem to also jell with it. There's a Kata that attacks with your offhand weapon and does extra damage if the target is dazed. Then there's another fire kata that dazes the target. It seems Mirumoto bushi are meant to be the fire bushi.

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Striking as Fire is for Kakita with Crescent Moon Style who Guards in Fire Stance, doesn't like the successes on counter attack so Strikes As Fire to make their next critical finishing.

 

Also, remember that Fire Stance will add anywhere between 0 and your kept dice in damage on its own. Striking as Fire helps with certain enemies, like Boars and Trolls, who can't be defeated simply by wounding them (they are immune to incapacitation and unconsciousness); you need to crit them with a DEAD result. So your best bet is to power through their Resilence and use Striking As Fire to increase severity of the crit to death. 

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1 hour ago, WildKnight said:

 

Okay, find me ANY tale where what I described occurs.

You say the story doesn't have to be beloved, but you're missing the point.  The reason I included the word "beloved" is because, in theory, an RPG is supposed to be an enjoyable experience for everyone involved.  The best games are stories we tell again and again.  Hence...  "beloved." 

Yes, and my group talks about the L5R campaign more than any other game I've run - and they love telling the stories about how the people died in all sorts of ways.  Very, very few of those deaths were heroic.  (A Unicorn's horse being cut to ribbons in the tomb.  A ninja being decapitated summarily by Daidoji Uji.  Another getting swallowed suddenly by the Darkness.  Another being killed by a naga arrow when they first walked into the ruins.  Another succumbing to the Taint and Fu Leng ripping out of his chest.  Another being torn apart to summon Shuten Doji.  Another simply being executed for being incompetent.  Three more dying because they accidentally pissed off the Elemental Masters.)

The thing is, it is an enjoyable experience.  Different people enjoy different things.  I enjoyed the danger in L5R, which is why I picked it up.  It's why I play Call of Cthulhu.  Or Kult.  Or Kuro.  It's not Dark Fantasy, but it's serious, and that's part of what drew me to the game, rather than having the PCs walking around with Plot Armour.

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1 hour ago, WildKnight said:

 

Okay, find me ANY tale where what I described occurs.

You say the story doesn't have to be beloved, but you're missing the point.  The reason I included the word "beloved" is because, in theory, an RPG is supposed to be an enjoyable experience for everyone involved.  The best games are stories we tell again and again.  Hence...  "beloved." 

https://blog.tkmarnell.com/east-asian-storytelling/
 

You can also see the difference in the way we tell stories. Modern American stories are usually told from a single person's point of view, and they're about heroes taking charge and changing lives. We expect—we demand—that protags protag. We get annoyed by reactive heroes who fail to drive their own stories.

In East Asian fiction, protagonists are often victims of fate, rather than shapers of it. Writers head-hop between many perspectives. They don't assume that a single hero can fix a troubled world. Characters suffer, and suffer, and suffer some more, and then they die.

There's an unspoken rule in Western storytelling that protagonists can't die. We kill off villains, we kill off minor characters, and we especially like to kill off mentor figures (RIP Obi Wan, Mufasa, and Spiderman's Uncle Ben), but we don't kill off major characters. Americans get very upset when writers kill heroes. We want to believe we can control the universe with enough courage and savvy, and that only weak, stupid, unlikable and unimportant people are mortal.

But in Asian stories, nobody is safe. Nobody. Fierce warriors, beautiful princesses, comic sidekicks, adorable young kids, puppies and kittens...they're all potential victims. Don't be fooled into thinking everyone will be happy because you're watching a lighthearted Chinese comedy or a cheerful Japanese anime. The characters you love are going to die.

And unlike over here, children aren't zealously sheltered from tears. In Kroryu Sentai Zyuranger, the Japanese show adapted for the US as Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, the original Green Ranger dies in the arms of his younger brother, the Red Ranger. In Candy Candy, a classic anime for girls, the sparkly-eyed, pig-tailed heroine's first love dies in a hunting accident. Then her great romance with a handsome bad boy, built up over two years' worth of episodes, ends when he's honor-bound to marry another girl.

East Asian love stories are often bittersweet, full of wistful sorrow, longing, and regret. Japanese romance movies typically feature two people who dance on the edge of a relationship without overtly expressing their feelings, and then one of them dies. In wuxia, a hero and his/her love interest almost always part forever in the end. They might be separated by death, like in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (2000) and Prince of Lan Ling (2013). Or they might separate by choice when the hero decides to become a monk, like in the TV series Chinese Paladin 3 (2009) and in Jet Li's debut movie Shaolin Temple (1982).

To Americans, these are dark and disappointing endings. We want love to conquer all. We want impassioned kisses in the rain and promises of forever.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tashiro said:

https://blog.tkmarnell.com/east-asian-storytelling/
 

You can also see the difference in the way we tell stories. Modern American stories are usually told from a single person's point of view, and they're about heroes taking charge and changing lives. We expect—we demand—that protags protag. We get annoyed by reactive heroes who fail to drive their own stories.

In East Asian fiction, protagonists are often victims of fate, rather than shapers of it. Writers head-hop between many perspectives. They don't assume that a single hero can fix a troubled world. Characters suffer, and suffer, and suffer some more, and then they die.

There's an unspoken rule in Western storytelling that protagonists can't die. We kill off villains, we kill off minor characters, and we especially like to kill off mentor figures (RIP Obi Wan, Mufasa, and Spiderman's Uncle Ben), but we don't kill off major characters. Americans get very upset when writers kill heroes. We want to believe we can control the universe with enough courage and savvy, and that only weak, stupid, unlikable and unimportant people are mortal.

But in Asian stories, nobody is safe. Nobody. Fierce warriors, beautiful princesses, comic sidekicks, adorable young kids, puppies and kittens...they're all potential victims. Don't be fooled into thinking everyone will be happy because you're watching a lighthearted Chinese comedy or a cheerful Japanese anime. The characters you love are going to die.

And unlike over here, children aren't zealously sheltered from tears. In Kroryu Sentai Zyuranger, the Japanese show adapted for the US as Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, the original Green Ranger dies in the arms of his younger brother, the Red Ranger. In Candy Candy, a classic anime for girls, the sparkly-eyed, pig-tailed heroine's first love dies in a hunting accident. Then her great romance with a handsome bad boy, built up over two years' worth of episodes, ends when he's honor-bound to marry another girl.

East Asian love stories are often bittersweet, full of wistful sorrow, longing, and regret. Japanese romance movies typically feature two people who dance on the edge of a relationship without overtly expressing their feelings, and then one of them dies. In wuxia, a hero and his/her love interest almost always part forever in the end. They might be separated by death, like in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (2000) and Prince of Lan Ling (2013). Or they might separate by choice when the hero decides to become a monk, like in the TV series Chinese Paladin 3 (2009) and in Jet Li's debut movie Shaolin Temple (1982).

To Americans, these are dark and disappointing endings. We want love to conquer all. We want impassioned kisses in the rain and promises of forever.

 

 

 

....  the refutation to this was already posted.

AGAIN, even if that weren't so, this DOES NOT defend your position, and I'm unsure as to how you can't see that.  Nobody is suggesting L5R should always have a happy ending (and the notion that "western" stories always do is equally ridiculous).  The point is that the deaths aren't pointless, because that doesn't make for a good story.  Yes, the characters you love are going to die.  They're not going to die pointlessly.

 

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I'm not looking for 'a good story'.  I'm looking for a good setting.  The "story" tells itself - by the choices the players make.  It may mean characters die off "pointlessly" - that's what happens in that kind of setting.  It can happen in many RPGs - the character could be the big hero, or could be a footnote in history.  Either is fine as far as the game is concerned - as long as the players know ahead of time such things can happen.  If you're playing D&D, a stray arrow at 1st level can cut your career short.  In Shadowrun, piss off the wrong guy and if you're not careful enough, you wake up, step outside, and a sniper cuts your life short.

There's nothing wrong with playing a game where the PCs have plot armour - there's a lot of games like that.  The big thing with L5R was it didn't have that.  That was the main attraction of the mechanics for me.

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Ok I think getting to a deadliness of 10-11 is good enough with out instant death to start with first in fire stance with  3 skill and say a 3 fire you can kill someone in 1 blow  and not need a crit to do it.

it dose depends on explosions and strife but it's do able  average start is 8 resilience(there is some exceptions)  so if you get a good explosion chain and a lot of Successes  and strife(=successes)

and lets not say  Lacquered Armour lets go with Traveling cloths concealed arm (not everyone is a crab) and in most situations your only going to be wearing armor when you know your heading into trouble or war
so that is a 2 protection  so katana has a 4 damage -2=2 so lets just say your doing 2 + total number of bonus successes and you get 2 explosions 2 normal and 4 strife that is 8 successes total
  in fire stance so that is 10 damage

that is a crit and over there Resistance  so there incapacitate  +5 to the crit katana starts at a 5 +2 handed makes it a 7 +5= 12(if it's a kakita it's a 13 ) now bets starting ring is 3 so the most successes they can get is 3 to mitigate the crit 

that means there know Koed and bleeding and probably lost hand or arm there bleeding and Unconscious if it's a kakita , if it's not a kakita lost  finger or maimed there arm there bleeding and incapacitated so there out of the fight unless there shugenja can come heal them. this  is if they do not sacrifice a limb or there weapon to try and parry your crit. so fights can go  1 hit and done without killing them till you take there heads off after the battle. 

of course you could just hit them next round and kill them with another hard hit 

but if you get really really lucky with explosions you could do enough damage to kill in one blow just like a goblin rolling 50 to hit and 100+ damage on 2k1 and 1k1 

Edited by Grodark

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4 hours ago, Grodark said:

Ok I think getting to a deadliness of 10-11 is good enough with out instant death to start with first in fire stance with  3 skill and say a 3 fire you can kill someone in 1 blow  and not need a crit to do it.

it dose depends on explosions and strife but it's do able  average start is 8 resilience(there is some exceptions)  so if you get a good explosion chain and a lot of Successes  and strife(=successes)

and lets not say  Lacquered Armour lets go with Traveling cloths concealed arm (not everyone is a crab) and in most situations your only going to be wearing armor when you know your heading into trouble or war
so that is a 2 protection  so katana has a 4 damage -2=2 so lets just say your doing 2 + total number of bonus successes and you get 2 explosions 2 normal and 4 strife that is 8 successes total
  in fire stance so that is 10 damage

that is a crit and over there Resistance  so there incapacitate  +5 to the crit katana starts at a 5 +2 handed makes it a 7 +5= 12(if it's a kakita it's a 13 ) now bets starting ring is 3 so the most successes they can get is 3 to mitigate the crit 

that means there know Koed and bleeding and probably lost hand or arm there bleeding and Unconscious if it's a kakita , if it's not a kakita lost  finger or maimed there arm there bleeding and incapacitated so there out of the fight unless there shugenja can come heal them. this  is if they do not sacrifice a limb or there weapon to try and parry your crit. so fights can go  1 hit and done without killing them till you take there heads off after the battle. 

of course you could just hit them next round and kill them with another hard hit 

but if you get really really lucky with explosions you could do enough damage to kill in one blow just like a goblin rolling 50 to hit and 100+ damage on 2k1 and 1k1 

The reason I said lacquered, is because if you're a general, you're probably wearing the 1e to 4e 'light armour' - not ashigaru (which is what I presumed cloth to be).  The entire idea is 'fire at enemy general in war' - standard Scorpion sneaky trick.  KO and Bleeding would be considered a failed assignment and if the person drops, you're going to have a **** of a time getting a second shot on them.  And of course, a second shot being required is a failed mission.  If the enemy drops, his yojimbo are going to be protecting him from that point on, meaning you're not going to get a second chance.

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6 hours ago, Grodark said:

Ok I think getting to a deadliness of 10-11 is good enough with out instant death to start with first in fire stance with  3 skill and say a 3 fire you can kill someone in 1 blow  and not need a crit to do it.

it dose depends on explosions and strife but it's do able  average start is 8 resilience(there is some exceptions)  so if you get a good explosion chain and a lot of Successes  and strife(=successes)

and lets not say  Lacquered Armour lets go with Traveling cloths concealed arm (not everyone is a crab) and in most situations your only going to be wearing armor when you know your heading into trouble or war
so that is a 2 protection  so katana has a 4 damage -2=2 so lets just say your doing 2 + total number of bonus successes and you get 2 explosions 2 normal and 4 strife that is 8 successes total
  in fire stance so that is 10 damage

that is a crit and over there Resistance  so there incapacitate  +5 to the crit katana starts at a 5 +2 handed makes it a 7 +5= 12(if it's a kakita it's a 13 ) now bets starting ring is 3 so the most successes they can get is 3 to mitigate the crit 

that means there know Koed and bleeding and probably lost hand or arm there bleeding and Unconscious if it's a kakita , if it's not a kakita lost  finger or maimed there arm there bleeding and incapacitated so there out of the fight unless there shugenja can come heal them. this  is if they do not sacrifice a limb or there weapon to try and parry your crit. so fights can go  1 hit and done without killing them till you take there heads off after the battle. 

of course you could just hit them next round and kill them with another hard hit 

but if you get really really lucky with explosions you could do enough damage to kill in one blow just like a goblin rolling 50 to hit and 100+ damage on 2k1 and 1k1 

Good post but a few small quibbles:

-Bonus success is what adds to damage. So if the TN to hit is 2, then 8 success should add 6 damage (not 8) to the attack no?

-Just because the starting ring is 3 doesn't mean 3 is the most success possible to mitigate a crit. Dice on fitness checks can explode too.

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2 hours ago, Tashiro said:

The reason I said lacquered, is because if you're a general, you're probably wearing the 1e to 4e 'light armour' - not ashigaru (which is what I presumed cloth to be).  The entire idea is 'fire at enemy general in war' - standard Scorpion sneaky trick.  KO and Bleeding would be considered a failed assignment and if the person drops, you're going to have a **** of a time getting a second shot on them.  And of course, a second shot being required is a failed mission.  If the enemy drops, his yojimbo are going to be protecting him from that point on, meaning you're not going to get a second chance.

Why is this hypothetical scenario the proper one for judging the lethality of the system? Is one-shotting a general in plate armor from range with a bow something that happened often in history? Is it a trope of classic "eastern" literature? Since this is a forum for giving feedback, I'd like to thank FFG for not using this scenario as the proper judge of the lethality of their system.

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I'm using it as an example, because it was used as an example in the fiction for L5R 1e as something 'done'.  Then of course, there were the combats that happened as well in L5R, which was usually settled in the first round of combat.  The person who went first typically killed first - and usually in the first round of combat.  (This was also the editions which had the notorious Crane technique at higher rank which was 'hit your target before Initiative is rolled, which was awesome sauce, and the Dragon 'if you kill your target, it doesn't count as an attack' Technique).

Armour didn't reduce damage.  It reduced the chance to hit - it was more for deflecting close shaves than actually stopping the weapon.  (Just saw some videos not too long ago showing just how armour-penetrating a katana actually is).

My general point is - there should be some swing option for the GM to raise or lower the lethality, and it looks like that might actually go into the book, so good.  People who like low lethality get their wish, people who want high lethality get their wish - I consider it settled.

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23 minutes ago, Tashiro said:

(Just saw some videos not too long ago showing just how armour-penetrating a katana actually is).

 

I would like to see that video. Generally speaking, anything that talks about the armor-piercing capabilities of nearly any sword is making dubious claims. 

This video, for example, shows them aiming for gaps and weak points in the armor. 

But I do agree with your final point. Let the GM have the power to make it as lethal or non-lethal as they want. 

Edited by Daitora

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On 10/7/2017 at 2:00 AM, Mobiusllls said:

How often do you get critical strikes on this system? On newbies samurais and on rank 5 samurais?

Because a funny thing is that "Striking as fire increase your severity!!!" except that it only last one turn, meaning that it only works if you increase severity on the first attack and then get a critical on the second. i dont think that a player has this kind of knowledge (Im gonna roll a critical on the next strike, so i will use this turn to buff it!). And i mean, if you strike as fire and get 2 opportunities, why would you increase your severity by 2 and risk losing it in the next turn instead of hurting your opponent? Seems better to just hit a critical strike and make your opponent roll for it, put pressure on him.

I should point out, that while striking as fire is not consistent. The others striking as are pretty much it. You can plan when to use it and how to use it.

As I read the rules you can trigger striking with fire on an attack that will trigger a critical (either through wounds or other opportunities) .

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10 hours ago, Norgrath said:

As I read the rules you can trigger striking with fire on an attack that will trigger a critical (either through wounds or other opportunities) .

Striking as fire is reliable. i conceded to that after play testing. More skill and rings dont change drastically the amount of success (Except on those crazy explosions that we know off) But make less strife or more oportunitties more reliable. With Ring 3 and Skill 3 you are good to go, critical strike wise.

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11 hours ago, Norgrath said:

As I read the rules you can trigger striking with fire on an attack that will trigger a critical (either through wounds or other opportunities) .

That's a lot of Opportunity to burn through. 

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It works, but it also begs the question why exactly do you care what severity will this crit be - unless you are fighting Trolls or Boars. 

 

Generally Striking as Fire looks like an attractive option for when you didn't hit and want to setup next character going in - spend one Opportunity to Assist them, and rest on Striking as Fire to make a double up special. 

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