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LucaCherstich

Zanbato???

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crossbows I don't know, but firearms kinda fell off favor during the closing of Japan by Tokugawa shogunate, despite having seen extensive use at the height of the Sengoku Jidai.

They were not really banned, its just that they were no more large scale war that needed their usage.

Edited by Nitenman

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14 hours ago, Manic Modron said:

I did a Google image search for Zanbato.  I got a sufficient number of historical images and actual weapons that I am pretty sure I could point and say "these, not these."

Did you do the same with "Nodachi"? 

Noticed any difference?

I see the differences and the number of idiotic-manga-like people with unbelievably large swords definitively increase with the word "Zanbato."

All editions of L5R used the word "Nodachi" and now they use the word "Zanbato"....they clearly decided to change!

I feel that's something meaningful going on and, if it is not going in conscious terms, it is going unconsciouly which (at least for me) is even worse...

 

 

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On 09/10/2017 at 8:10 AM, LucaCherstich said:

Whatever the historical reality was  (and maybe all of you have academic reasons to support your own opinion) for the popular culture and for most rpg players the word "zanbato" has more probabilities to evoke exaggerated manga/anime meaning rather than something one can see in a good old chambara movie.

Try with google images....

That's the main reason why I start complaining: popular culture not serious academic discussion.

Whilst I am sure that you are accurately stating your opinion, and that is yours to have as you want, please don't give me my opinion by stating something about 'most rpg players' unless you have statistics to back it up.

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I'd say it depends on the mood of my players and the stories I want to tell. I can do as much gritty low magic depressing as Shonen over the top action where my players end up in possession of the Five elemental treasures. Even flawed courtiers stuck in survival horror (Castle taken over by the Shuten Doji for ex) I actually like focused mini campaign.

 

Edited by Nitenman

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13 hours ago, LucaCherstich said:

Did you do the same with "Nodachi"? 

Noticed any difference?

Yes, but I don't feel a reason to care.  A nodachi would be a large katana, probably with razor edged and all the bonuses and drawbacks of that trait.  A zanbato is not razor edged, which makes it a more reasonable weapon to use against heavy armor and carapaced Oni.  There is a reasonable place for both in the setting without panicking that shonen anime exists.

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16 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Whilst I am sure that you are accurately stating your opinion, and that is yours to have as you want, please don't give me my opinion by stating something about 'most rpg players' unless you have statistics to back it up.

OK.

Sorry If offended you in any case, I did not meant to force my opinion on anybody.

Off course I have no statistics on what I say but Google Images work according to the number of images which are more frequently to a certain word and the most associated images tend to appear in more visible positions ...

...my statistics are the number of ridicolously-large blades associated with the word "Zanbato". 

Count them.

And then count the number of similar images with the word "nodachi".....

Google Images is nourished by popular culture and its trends, so I guess that Google Images can demonstrates what most people think about when speaking of "Zanbato."

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16 hours ago, Nitenman said:

@LucaCherstich maybe it's not L5R that you need but Bushido (the Pen & Paper game), its more Chanbarra and less Asian Popular culture.

We can say that once "Chanbara" WAS the main thing in "Asian popular culture" (and even a generalistic word like "Asian" it's problematic) ... while maybe today anime/manga have more influence on that kind of culture...

 I always knew that L5R is not pure medieval/postmedieval Japan and I'm OK with a L5R with strong chambara roots, even if magic shugenjas and monks exist....as far as they are not the main focus.

I know this is "my way" and also that there is no "right way" to play Rokugan.

And somehow I loved 4th edition for the the "Rokugan your way" method.

But if this edition of Rokugan goes to another direction...maybe I'll wait before spending some money on it.

That's it!

I meant nothing else.

 

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I don't recall when the crossbow imports were banned, but it was before the arrival of the Portuguese. Examples of native-built crossbows from the Tokugawa/Edo period exist in Nagano. References to crossbows in dictionaries have been cited going back to the Heian era. 

The arrival of the Portuguese brought a near immediate ban... which was lifted by Meiji... of firearms as a danger to Bushidō.

Given the use of aristotelean elements in the opportunities table, I'm inclined to chalk Zanbato up to research failures and anime influence more than intentional change.

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Ban on crossbow was an European thing 1139 by pope Innocent II, but only its use against other Christians.

Japan knew Crossbows indeed, but it never really took off as a weapon, because the martial caste was composed of Horse archers, and Crossbows were unwieldy on horse.

By the time Japan started to really use peasant levy (Ashigaru) during the Sengoku Jidai, they had moved to Firearms already.

ask Takeda Shingen what he think on the ban on firearms, and the battle of Anegawa.

teppo was a major element in unification of Japan by Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu, way after the Portuguese introduced firearms in 1540 ish on Tanegashima island and way before bushido was really theorized under the late Tokugawa shogunate to keep all those sword bearing folks from constantly killing each others in the 17th-18th century.

Firearms kinda fell of favor because there were no more reason to use them, due to the end of large scale battles. But Japan still had gunsmiths. That's why they could start rearming progressively with guns after the Kurofune attacks of commodore Perry in 1854.

Rokugan does have a ban on Firearms though, since 442,the battle of the White Stag, and the death of beloved Empress Hantei Yugozohime under the bullets of Thrane invaders. It led to a ban of all Gaijin from entering the empire too.

Aristotelian elements? Are you talking about Earth, Air, Fire and Water? (Also known as Chi, Fu, Ka, Sui...) what about their friend Void then? (aka Ku). Aristotelian too?

Ever heard of the Godai philosophy, Japanese five elements? Moreover, ever heard of the Book of Five Rings (Gorin No Sho), which is The major influence on this game, so much that they even introduced the fighting style of its writer Myamoto Musashi in the game (Niten Ichi Ryu).
 

Edited by Nitenman

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Nitenman - Yes, I'm WELL aware of the two systems, hence my complaints. There was a japanese ban at one point; I've been reading a rather large and detailed history of Japan from one of the major universities... I just can't find it in the scans I'm reading (scans provided by the institution holding the copyright.)

The aristotelian are dominant over next element, weak vs prior, and tie vs opposite

The Japanese are dominant over the next and the one two back; there is no tying. There is no "opposite" element. Within the godai, traditionally, Water Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal from the chinese system. By the time of Go-no-rin-sho's writing, void replaces metal, and spirit or air replaces wood... 

The opportunity tables uses aristotelian modes, not Japanese. But that's an argument for another thread.

 

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On ‎13‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:12 AM, AK_Aramis said:

aristotelean elements

ok I see what you meant now. Thing is L5R is not faithful to Chinese five elements because its a mish mash inspired by Gorin No Sho made by americans fantasizing on Asian culture. So we need to take it as is in the context of the game. Else it could add extra layers of complexity and may become way much more alien to target customers (westerners).

This is also probably why there isn't any Feng Shui or reference to the 4 sacred beasts that are rather essential in Japan beliefs.

Have you ever played Qin (its French :) ) It uses the Five Chinese elements system quite well.

I have sometimes pondered on making a custom setting homebrewed from 4th ed using the five Chinese elements, and the 12 Chinese zodiacal animals as Families emblems divided into 4 clans (Byakko, Seiryu, Suzaku, Genbu) organized according to seasons.

Edited by Nitenman

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Qin, no.

Blood & Honor, John's "Get samurai right" game, yes.

Read, studied, and internalized Go No Rin Sho? yes. When asked by my SCA-fencer buddies my favorite master, Miyamoto Musashi.

Done a good bit of mythic research? yes. Studied the language? A bit - enough to know it makes Russian and Klingon look easy. 

My undergrad is in Russian history... but Japanese history is a bit of a naughty pleasure, because the japanese mythologize it heavily, even now.

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On 10/5/2017 at 3:24 AM, LucaCherstich said:

I've seen that you put "Zanbato" and not "Nodachi" or "Odachi".

Maybe I'm just exagerating and definitively I need to read this pdf better ...

... but if this change in "names" implies a strengtheining of the "High Fantasy-Manga-anime" style and a further diminition of the "Kurosawa/Chambara/Jidaeki" styles...thank you, I'm not interested in this game.

 

On 10/5/2017 at 5:33 AM, Vutall said:

A Zanbato is traditionally an anti-cavalry sword and has basis in real life and isn't just an anime trope. Functionally speaking, it is about the same size as an Odachi.

Actually, while there was no official reference to Zanbatos in history (probably because they were used AND abandoned during the Sengoku Jidai as a failure because they were next to useless except for decapitating horses and were too easy to read the attack directions and dodge attacks... and since Samurai never talk about their failures they never officially reached the History Books despite the fact that the remains of Zambatos are still occasionally found in Japan.

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