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LucaCherstich

Zanbato???

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5 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Considering that Rokugan has a culture where they pretty much directly refuse to talk about the Shadowlands, everyone else calling a sword designed to kill oni a "horse cutting sword" make sense. Also sets up a subtle insult towards any Crab that brings one to a battle between samurai armies over a Odachi or Nodachi.

"That fool brought a sword only good for slaughtering horses to a battlefield."

Ooh, I like it.

Also it provides a way for the Unicorn to get offended over nothing if they want to start a war.

As to new styles of katana...

I demand my Heihachi school Woodcutter style technique.

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5 hours ago, Aedo said:

So, obviously this is not on purpose or anything, but it's funny that your statements are the inverse of how a zanbato would be included in Rokugan. "Zanbato" is written with three characters that mean "horse slaying sword". They would be uniquely suited to the wide open spaces of a field where cavalry are used and there fire probably really bad on the Wall. Meanwhile an odachi sounds great for Wall defense.

In other news, a zanbato- horse slaying sword, nodachi - field sword, and odachi/daito/uchigatana - great sword are all different things. Daikatana is not a real word.

Also, zanbato is the Yamato pronunciation of Zhanmadao and therefore more likely to be used in the provinces, where the latter is going to come up in poetry, official documents, and snooty imperial conversation while making bad sadane jokes.

I was under the impression that he was implying that the Crab, with their Great Border Wall, would use the 'proper chinese' pronunciation, whereas the capital, who aren't 'proper chinese' mess it up a bit, either because they think the Crab talk like hicks, or because they don't like talking about the Shadowlands.

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5 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

That really was the closest thing we're getting to an L5R film ever, I think.

Wait, did you not see 47 Ronin?

MAN, that was a horrible movie.

Also, concerning John Wick and his movies, I didn't know that writing RPG's involved that much gunfire. This is an intense industry man, I tell you what. Sorry to hear about his dog, too. I hope that didn't throw off his work during the 7th Sea kickstarter.

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5 hours ago, Manic Modron said:

"There will never be an L5R movie.  Master Mifune is no longer available." John Wick

That's what I was speaking about!

Mifune & Kurosawa were deeply felt in the early L5R books even if it was a "Samurai &Magic" game...but nowadays there are so many players that have not even heard once of the good old Jidaeki movie genre but are all about Anime &Manga stuff (which I really dislike...).

That's why I got bad feelings reading about "Zanbato".... 

Edited by LucaCherstich

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3 minutes ago, LucaCherstich said:

That's what I was speaking about!

Mifune & Kurosawa were deeply felt in the early L5R books even if it was a "Samurai &Magic" game...but nowadays there are so many players that have not even heard once of the good old Jidaeki movie genre but are all about Anime &Manga stuff (which I really dislike...).

That's why I got bad feelings reading about "Zanbato".... 

I recommend a viewing of Princess Mononoke (Mononoke-hime), preferably with the Japanese voice acting. Before you get too upset about it, be aware that the director, Hayao Miyazaki, also despises the very notion of Anime. We should talk more after that.

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watch an anime called Shigurui then. Sometimes over the top, but good samurai drama (for mature audience though).

I'll keep thinking of the "L5R your way" mantra.

We need a ruleset that allow both gritty Kurosawa esque drama and Shonen style adventure. When six bushi friends color coded band together, friendship is magic...

I usually hooked up players with a Shonen style campaign to get the setting in a light way then push on short campaign with gritty violence and Moral choices.

So if a Zanbato can help someone enjoy the setting and get into it, why not. But there will be social stigma I'll make him feel as a GM.

Edited by Nitenman

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8 hours ago, WHW said:

"Anime was a mistake" is a troll meme about made up quote slapped on two gifs. He didn't say that.

True enough. But the sentiment is actually a real one. Miyazaki is pretty pretentious about his analysis of film and it seems that he dislikes the concept of "Anime" as such because the term represents a cheapening of the entire industry where people are making animation without thinking about what they're making or drawing from life experiences. It's a matter of pointless fantastication without real story or emotion to back it up, which I'm going to guess might be the crux of @LucaCherstich's issue. Not sure, but guessing.

https://www.quora.com/Did-Hayao-Miyazaki-really-say-that-anime-was-a-mistake

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I honestly declare myself ignorant of most anime...but every time I try to watch one I feel bored. Things too often are too exaggerated or unbalanced, at least for my tastes.

My problem is that years ago I came to Rokugan after having watched so much Kurosawa, Kobayashi, Hideo Gosha and many other Jidaeki /chanbara movies.

And in those, mostly black&white movies you can see balance, rhythm and interesting stories. And, more than anything else the characters in those movies really act like samurai in an old samurai drama in a real samurai culture which was somehow still felt in Japan during the 1950s...while the samurai drama of most recent manga-anine always has something too exaggerated to be true...

I repeat : I'm maybe ignorant of most anime/manga but the roles interpreted by Toshiro Mifune or Tatsuya Nakadai for me remain the basic models of a samurai and how samurai behave.

When I play L5R rpg I got inspiration from Throne of Blood, Yojimbo or Seven Samurai to tell my stories....

I know that L5R is much more than that (especially regarding magic)...but THAT is the original core of the inspiration.

And I know also that simplicism brought other "Asian" elements to L5R borrowing Chinese, Mongol and Korean stuff. However, Samurai culture has always been the main thing, especially the samurai culture has reflected in old chambers movies (which are always the main part of the "resources and inspiration" page in l5r core rules.

And a L5R which became farther from that "Kurosawa-like" core is of no interest to me.

I had enough of Indian goddesses, destroyers, super-power manga monks or shugenja or anything which turn honest bushi and courtiers into anime magic powers or super-sopranatural martial artists ....

I know that maybe I'm exaggerating....but that is the kind of feeling that reading the word "Zanbato" in Rokugan provokes to me.

"Rokugan your way"....but maybe this is not my way.

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Rokugan your way is take what you want, leave the rest.

I understand the point. Although I do love Japanese Anime I have the same old Chanbarra background and some stuff in the beta book made me cringe. At first. I was actually even more annoyed by the Jian and Dao than by the Zanbatto. I like Wuxia as much as Chanbarra but its very different settings.

Do not feel bound by what's in the book. Make it your own.

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45 minutes ago, Nitenman said:

Rokugan your way is take what you want, leave the rest.

I understand the point. Although I do love Japanese Anime I have the same old Chanbarra background and some stuff in the beta book made me cringe. At first. I was actually even more annoyed by the Jian and Dao than by the Zanbatto. I like Wuxia as much as Chanbarra but its very different settings.

Do not feel bound by what's in the book. Make it your own.

Nitenman,

the problem is: I got almost all the of 4th edition books and written so much homebrew stuff for my own fun for my own game table.

Now FFG is "tempting" me with something new...but from the hints that I get I feel that there is nothing that convinces me to abandon 4th edition for this new game.

I kind of got the feeling that we will see much more of the "Anime/Manga" or the "Wuxia" stuff at the expense of "Chanbara" ...

I know it's just a feeling, but I try to reason in economic terms and in respect to my own tastes and what I like.

And, compared to this, I've seen nothing which forces me to leave 4th edition and spend more money for new books and more time for a new system....which maybe has stuff which I dislike.

I'll just wait and keep on enjoying 4th edition.

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On 10/5/2017 at 9:42 AM, Ultimatecalibur said:

Your slippery slope is really bad.

The Zhan Ma Dao was a real Chinese weapon and I don't see people complaining about either of the Chinese crossbows.

The chinese crossbows were imported to Japan, and known to samurai culture. The Žan Ma Dao was not. So, nice false equivalence. Throwing accusations of logical fallacies while using one oneself is bad form.

The native O-Dachi and No-dachi are (1) easier to find good visuals for, (2) historic Samurai weapons, (3) actually used in historic Samurai battles, and (4) Fundamentally of the same family of blades as Katana, Wakizashi, and Tanto (and the earlier variants, tachiand kodachi)

 

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4 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

The chinese crossbows were imported to Japan, and known to samurai culture. The Žan Ma Dao was not.

 

They were? They weren't?

If zhuge nu were a thing commonly known in Japan, they don't seem to have been commonly used. I guess they could have known about them but if so, it seems odd that they would eschew them and that there doesn't seem to be a Japanese reading for the word (although I may be missing something about the word chu ko nu.) You may also have some information I don't, but I'm not seeing any common record of crossbow use or acknowledgement in Japan.

Conversely, as noted above, zanbato is a Japanese reading of the word Zhan ma dao, although this does not in and of itself imply presence of the weapon in Japan, only awareness of the term to an extent common enough that people readily recognize the word as something other than a technical term. Also there seem to be several zanbato blades in matsuyama castle. Not sure either on dates or if they were imported or forged in Japan. Still, greater awareness of the sword than the crossbow seems to be the case.

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4 hours ago, Aedo said:

 

They were? They weren't?

If zhuge nu were a thing commonly known in Japan, they don't seem to have been commonly used. I guess they could have known about them but if so, it seems odd that they would eschew them and that there doesn't seem to be a Japanese reading for the word (although I may be missing something about the word chu ko nu.) You may also have some information I don't, but I'm not seeing any common record of crossbow use or acknowledgement in Japan.

Conversely, as noted above, zanbato is a Japanese reading of the word Zhan ma dao, although this does not in and of itself imply presence of the weapon in Japan, only awareness of the term to an extent common enough that people readily recognize the word as something other than a technical term. Also there seem to be several zanbato blades in matsuyama castle. Not sure either on dates or if they were imported or forged in Japan. Still, greater awareness of the sword than the crossbow seems to be the case.

The crossbows were banned for the same reasons later firearms would be... a threat to bushidō.

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Whatever the historical reality was  (and maybe all of you have academic reasons to support your own opinion) for the popular culture and for most rpg players the word "zanbato" has more probabilities to evoke exaggerated manga/anime meaning rather than something one can see in a good old chambara movie.

Try with google images....

That's the main reason why I start complaining: popular culture not serious academic discussion.

Edited by LucaCherstich

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16 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

The crossbows were banned for the same reasons later firearms would be... a threat to bushidō.

When did either of those things happen?

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