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Vagnaard

What should I do if I want to add the concept of raises back into the game ?

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Hi!

First, I think you guys did a good work with this.

I have just one strong issue with it.

Raises are missing.

I don't want them to be part of the default mechanics but I want them to be at least optional.

Do you guys have a better idea than just let people raise their own TN ?

I'm not sure the system statistically can support that because of the custom dices ...

 

What I mean by that is that with the old d10 system, you could kind of predict what kind of roll someone would have with the dice pool he had. The nature of this custom dice makes this impossible ...

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Nah, it just does not have the risks that the raise system had. All in all, this is way too gamist for my group.

Edit : After talking to my group - both the no real raise and the ninjo/giri mechanic is a deal killer for them. That's sad because I really like what you guys did ...

Edited by Vagnaard

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24 minutes ago, Vagnaard said:

Nah, it just does not have the risks that the raise system had. All in all, this is way too gamist for my group.

Edit : After talking to my group - both the no real raise and the ninjo/giri mechanic is a deal killer for them. That's sad because I really like what you guys did ...

I'm legitimately surprised. They didn't see L5R as a heavy roleplay based world before?

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1 minute ago, Silverfox13 said:

I think the Opportunity mechanic correlates quite a bit to the Raise mechanic. The TN is not altered because the choices of the dice you keep will allow you to make those choices post roll.

But that's the whole point. There is no risk. You Can safely calculate after rolling, whereas calling a raise first to do better is a risk.

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I see your point, and I can't really argue that Raising increases difficulty.
I'm not trying to be argumentative but what was the point of raising in the old system? To gain an additional effect on to the action that was being performed?

It doesn't emulate the increased risk, but it does incorporate choices with dice results and to ultimately try and achieve additional effects to an action.

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I've only skimmed so far (And really need to sleep since I'm currently in Romania on my honeymoon) but do far the system looks like it presents plenty of conflict via tough choices without raises. I find this aspect of the system more representative of samurai drama than placing bets on how much I'll exceed the TN.

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Lets say for instance you want to hit someone for extra damage. You declare a raise before and now need 2 extra successes to hit (your raise) and do extra damage. If you do not get those two extra successes you miss. You could simply decide not to go for raises which would make hitting easier, but you would not be allowed to use extra successes.

also for chases and all kinds of conflict/competition, the raises are important.

I know strife has been added to add something else, and while it's a Nice addition, it just doesn't do the same thing.

Right now for instance new samurai will miss a lot and seasoned samurai against another seasoned samurai will hit Each other all the time. Same as wfrp, where defence scaling was completely messed up. Will have to do competitive tests for combat or High level play will be broken.

Edited by Gallows

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37 minutes ago, marshzd said:

I'm legitimately surprised. They didn't see L5R as a heavy roleplay based world before?

Yeah, well, they don't need their roleplay to be dictated for them, which is exactly what these kind of mechanism are about. When one of my players does an outburst, it comes from him because his character really had enough... So we don't need those.

 

23 minutes ago, deraforia said:

I've only skimmed so far (And really need to sleep since I'm currently in Romania on my honeymoon) but do far the system looks like it presents plenty of conflict via tough choices without raises. I find this aspect of the system more representative of samurai drama than placing bets on how much I'll exceed the TN.

But I really liked the tension that raises added to the action of rolling dices. The way I am playing right now, when a players fails, it's mostly because he tried to over-reach more than because the dice were mean to them ... But I play with blind TN only, which means that the players don't do math. They know if the roll is easy for their character or hard. They then consider their skills and tools and check what level of success they want. My players like that because it adds a dimension that they can roleplay when they throw the roll.... Also happy honey moon and congratulation on the wedding!

 

25 minutes ago, Gallows said:

Right now for instance new samurai will miss a lot and seasoned samurai against another seasoned samurai will hit Each other all the time. Same as wfrp, where defence scaling was completely messed up. Will have to do competitive tests for combat or High level play will be broken.

Oh ... right. My campain is 3 year old ... We played every week once missing only a few which I find impressive ... With that much sessions, my players are rank 6 going on 7 ... This complicate things greatly!

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34 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

I see your point, and I can't really argue that Raising increases difficulty.
I'm not trying to be argumentative but what was the point of raising in the old system? To gain an additional effect on to the action that was being performed?

It doesn't emulate the increased risk, but it does incorporate choices with dice results and to ultimately try and achieve additional effects to an action.

Yes but ... It's really not equivalent. It's not the end result that interest my group, it's the tension that choosing what will happen to their character that they want ... If they call 5 raises, and I just have 3 levels success prepared ... I'll move the TN in my head, and they won't know what happened ... This is important to the experience I'm trying to give.

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17 minutes ago, Vagnaard said:

Yes but ... It's really not equivalent. It's not the end result that interest my group, it's the tension that choosing what will happen to their character that they want ... If they call 5 raises, and I just have 3 levels success prepared ... I'll move the TN in my head, and they won't know what happened ... This is important to the experience I'm trying to give.

So tell them they will need multiple successes before they roll, but dont say how many.  Same ambiance.

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26 minutes ago, Jennkryst said:

So tell them they will need multiple successes before they roll, but dont say how many.  Same ambiance.

Near but not exactly ... Still needs for them to have a say in the roll.

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Sounds like you just really wanted the old editions back. Raises to me were the absolute worst part of the game other than the hyper lethality. As for the roleplaying for them part, simply don't use it then. I actually find it rather elegant to have it in there as a breaking point and to focus on that side of things. I'm never wild about custom dice, but all in all, I can live with them if this is the result. Most of the actions are either simple enough that raises are required, or are tough enough that you will have to suffer stress to succeed. It's a nice balance with the system they choose to work with.

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1 hour ago, SideshowLucifer said:

Sounds like you just really wanted the old editions back. Raises to me were the absolute worst part of the game other than the hyper lethality. As for the roleplaying for them part, simply don't use it then. I actually find it rather elegant to have it in there as a breaking point and to focus on that side of things. I'm never wild about custom dice, but all in all, I can live with them if this is the result. Most of the actions are either simple enough that raises are required, or are tough enough that you will have to suffer stress to succeed. It's a nice balance with the system they choose to work with.

Nah I don't want the last edition back. I just want to be able to upgrade with least disturbance to my players ... I kind of have something alive and I don't want to kill it!

And I agree, but I'd still like more optional rules... That's kind of my condition to buy into the system ...

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Here's the thing though, Vagnaard. You're the GM, you can do what you want. You can make tweaks here and toss that out and add this and that. Whatever your heart desires you can do. If it ain't broke don't fix it, and you wanting something doesn't make it broke.

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4 hours ago, Vagnaard said:

What I mean by that is that with the old d10 system, you could kind of predict what kind of roll someone would have with the dice pool he had. The nature of this custom dice makes this impossible ...

I find this is the design psychology behind many of Fantasy Flight's games. Many of their custom dice games feature a mix of successes and resource results, and they favor dynamic, improvisational theater style games.

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58 minutes ago, BrambleLamb said:

Here's the thing though, Vagnaard. You're the GM, you can do what you want. You can make tweaks here and toss that out and add this and that. Whatever your heart desires you can do. If it ain't broke don't fix it, and you wanting something doesn't make it broke.

Well, it change if I'm gonna use the system or not! I invested a lot in this campaign and I want to like what I see here but ... It's a massive change. I really really like most of it but there are deal breakers to me... If I have to modify everything out of the box, i'm better to just not do anyways and that makes me feel kinda sad. 


I guess I'll have to wait for the system to grow and mature and maybe if I do a follow up to this campaign i'll run this ... But in it's current state, it's more and more apparent that it won't make me switch my currently active campaign.

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1 hour ago, Blackbird888 said:

I find this is the design psychology behind many of Fantasy Flight's games. Many of their custom dice games feature a mix of successes and resource results, and they favor dynamic, improvisational theater style games.

That's not false in theory.

By experience it quickly devolve into people quickly looking at charts to see how they can consume the mechanical bonus they got on their dices ... 

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11 minutes ago, Vagnaard said:

By experience it quickly devolve into people quickly looking at charts to see how they can consume the mechanical bonus they got on their dices ...

Maybe you just play with meta gamers. Most of the players I run for and play with would just accept enough to do the thing they want and call it good.

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24 minutes ago, Vagnaard said:

But in it's current state, it's more and more apparent that it won't make me switch my currently active campaign.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend switching regardless. Not because of the new system -- it could offer flawless balance with every bell and whistle and also make your bed and cook dinner for you and bring enlightenment, but I still wouldn't advise you to switch. I've been in a campaign that changed systems midway, and I *hated* it. Nothing worked the way it did before, which meant our characters changed whether we wanted them to or not. It sucked.

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First In all my years of playing L5R. I have found that the Raise system is not what everyone makes it out to be. In truth in every campaign I have run or played in Raises just tend to get used when a special effect is needed. I have yet to see a player use Raises if it is not required to achieve a goal. I only started to get people to use Raises when I adopted the +10TN free raise rule Which the opportunity rules handle perfectly.

I do have to agree though, if you are mid campaign I would not switch. Keep playing what your playing or start a new campaign.

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