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amuller93

Better crafting rules?

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I hade a look at the current crafting rules and came to the conclusion that its

1. Overly complected

2. Boring

3. Limiting

So im looking for someone who has overhalled it to be more intresting, something along the lines of fantasy fligths star wars games.

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OK based on what I heard lately I'd suggest you look at the vehicle repair rules.  They list essential skills you need to even try to repair vehicles.  You need at least one of them to try it.  Crafting might be similar.  Tech use let's you physically make something but you need. A. Design to make it.  So unless you download a design or get one somewhere you need a skill that let's you design something then craft it. 

 

One option I'm thinking is one roll but you get a bonus from. Other skills.  Say you have tech use at +20 and trade armorer at +10. You take your highest skli bonus and add half your lower ones.  So you'd take +20 on tech use and add 5 from trade armorer.  

 

The medicae skill. Might let you try to. Make medicine on it's own,  but if you had like trade chymist I might let you add it's full bonus to your roll.  If you had lore chymist I might let you add half it's bonus to the roll. Note that medicae would only let you craft medicines. If you want to. Make other stuff and you might need trade chymist with lores in chymist possibly aiding.  Again it's judgement.  If you want to. Make nerve gas,  heavy explosives,  etc normal chymist lore might give you half their bonus,  forbidden lore might give a full bonus. 

This also makes the different lores useful.  Want to make moonshine? Common lore chemistry might do it.  Something like,  acid,  or rust proof coatings for equipment,  disinfectant, etc?  Scholastic lore might be more useful.  High explosives, very deadly poison gas or super incendiary like napalm?  You probably need forbidden lore chemistry. Of course if you make something using a forbidden lore you might need to do some fast talking or be really chummy with your inquisitor... 

Have I laid some seeds in your gamer mind?  I hope so and hopefully they'll sprout into a bumper crop of ideas for you to harvest. 

 

Good luck. 

Edited by Techpriest support

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Ok so basicly i want to build a bolt gun

 

The skills i have is Prospector, armourer and tech use and basicly what i want is that theire should be some sort of a personalisation when building stuff

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Ok, all I can say it is how I would solve this situation as GM.

I would use DH1 crafting rules from Inquisitor's Handbook and Variable Pattern rules from OW Hammer of the Emperor.

I assume in advance that the character has access to the workshop and materials, and most importantly - to the design patterns and schemes.

Creating customized boltgun is, obviously, Very Hard (-30) task ("improving upon the STC design") and it would take a lot of time so looking at table 9-5 in IH - 2d10 days with time interval of 1 day.

In the end of every day character make Trade (Armourer) test with the aforementioned difficulty with appropriate modifiers for quality of workshop and materials (collection of materials can be a separate quest of Trade[Prospector] skill, btw), possible cooperation, voluntary project slowdown for more thorough work, etc. Creative ideas from the player's side, coinciding with setting lore, give the greatest bonus.

In the end of the project full time I'll sum up the failures and successes and determine the result depending on the outcome:

5 degrees of failure or more: project failed, all materials are lost.

4-1 DoF: item created have Poor quality OR Common quality and 1 random Pattern Negative from OW - by player choice.

Just a success: Common quality item without any modifiers OR 1 random Pattern Positive and 1 random Pattern Negative - by player choice.

1-4 DoS: 1 random Pattern Positive.

5-14 DoS: Good Quality item OR 1 Pattern Positive selected by player OR 2 random Pattern Positive - by player choice.

15+ DoS: Best Quality OR Good Quality & 1 Pattern Positive selected by player OR Good Quality & 2 random Pattern Positive - by player choice.

After finishing the work character can try to add further Weapon Modifications by rules from DH2 or OW armory section.

Edited by Jargal

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On 10/5/2017 at 0:55 AM, amuller93 said:

So im looking for someone who has overhalled it to be more intresting, something along the lines of fantasy fligths star wars games.

You're not the first who wants this… ;)

All signs point back at DH1:

On 9/27/2017 at 10:53 PM, Jargal said:

If you can access DH1` "Inquisitor's Handbook" I recommend crafting rules from this book. They are a lot clearer.

Rules for vehicle repair are copy-pasted to DH2 from Only War, where many things were simplified, since the game was about IG actions in the middle of battle. Again, I recommend, if you can, to read DH1 rules from IH.

 

 

On 10/6/2017 at 4:28 AM, Techpriest support said:

One option I'm thinking is one roll but you get a bonus from. Other skills.  Say you have tech use at +20 and trade armorer at +10. You take your highest skli bonus and add half your lower ones.  So you'd take +20 on tech use and add 5 from trade armorer. 

Or DoS from one test giving bonus to another, or some extra rolls count toward successes total, depending on the specific challenge.

If complex equipment needs to be set up separately for each increment of the task, it makes sense to require a test every time (in this case it will not give a bonus to the crafting tests and/or reduction of time, but that would come from using advanced tools as such). If it's just more of the same, it's reasonable to test Tech-Use once before the start.

On 10/6/2017 at 4:28 AM, Techpriest support said:

The medicae skill. Might let you try to. Make medicine on it's own,  but if you had like trade chymist I might let you add it's full bonus to your roll.  If you had lore chymist I might let you add half it's bonus to the roll. Note that medicae would only let you craft medicines. If you want to. Make other stuff and you might need trade chymist with lores in chymist possibly aiding.  Again it's judgement.  If you want to. Make nerve gas,  heavy explosives,  etc normal chymist lore might give you half their bonus,  forbidden lore might give a full bonus. 

This also makes the different lores useful.  Want to make moonshine? Common lore chemistry might do it.  Something like,  acid,  or rust proof coatings for equipment,  disinfectant, etc?  Scholastic lore might be more useful.  High explosives, very deadly poison gas or super incendiary like napalm?  You probably need forbidden lore chemistry. Of course if you make something using a forbidden lore you might need to do some fast talking or be really chummy with your inquisitor...

IMO in the 1st case if the character already knows what to do, the primary skill is Trade(Chymist), secondary are both Scholastic Lore (Chymistry) and Chem-Use (folded in Medicae in DH2).  Medicae would matter more if there's e.g. testing on guinea pigs. If doesn't know, Scholastic Lore(Chymistry) first, to set up a correct process.

But moonshine should be pure Trade(Chymist) - you don't need to read anything, just know how to operate a still and maybe very basic filtration.

Unless there are complications, but this usually would mean raw materials with potentially dangerous contaminants. I mean, it's possible to mess up even such a simple task for truly unusual mishaps (like accidentally setting up an unwanted catalytic process to produce enough of ethylene oxide that it would make your walls unto a fiery version of soap bubble immediately upon removal of the product jar, rather than quietly give everyone in the building cancer), but this would require tinkering up some performance-oriented abomination first - a common moonshiner's still is far too simple for such things, it can only catch fire (or clog and burst, if pressurised).

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If someone just wants a basic bolt weapon, period, I'd say the gun in and of itself is a simple design not much harder than a shotgun or auto pistol. I mean I just read my copy of inquisitors handbook and it had some bootleg bolt pistols in it on pg. 109 that were very elaborately made and expensive, but if you leave off the fancy stuff they add on for prestige and status a basic bolt weapon may not be hard to make. In fact I might even say a basic bolt weapon is no more mechanically complex than a pump action shotgun albeit made with higher quality metal and to higher standards and tighter tolerances.

 The two issues I as a gm would hit you with are finding a machine shop capable of making the gun. And again unless looked at carefully you might Get away with claiming you're making a high quality shotgun as I could see a pump action shotgun style weapon firing bolt type shells.

But even harder, IMHO, would be making the bolt rounds themselves. Personally I think making a single bolt round would be much harder than making a gun to fire it. I mean, solid fuel rocket propulsion, shaped charge armor piercing tip, explosive charge meant to penetrate into the target and detonate due to a "mass reactive detonator"....Yeah, likely the individual bolt round would be much harder to make than a gun to fire it.

 

So with me as a gm, you might find it relatively easy to make a weapon capable of firing bolt ammo even if you have to rack it every shot, but find it hellishly hard to get ammo for it.

 

Now I might be nice and allow some clever underground gunsmiths to make a 10 gauge shotgun round that did damage fairly comparable to a civilian bolter with shorter range. Relatively expensive of course. And once these poor man's bolter rounds came to notice, possibly by blowing nasty holes in some judges carapace armor, you'd likely have the arbites and possibly the mechanicus after you. 

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16 minutes ago, Techpriest support said:

Now I might be nice and allow some clever underground gunsmiths to make a 10 gauge shotgun round that did damage fairly comparable to a civilian bolter with shorter range.

Take hand cannon, add Man-Stopper bullets and there is 35m 1d10+4I pen 5 weapon against 30m 1d10+5X pen 4 of bolt pistol.

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Yeah jargal I was just about to point out tat a commonly available weapon equipped with better ammo can be comparable to a Bolt gun and a lot easier to equip. Your handcannon plus manstoppers was one example. Yes the bolt pistol has a greater ROF and tearing but it still quite deadly.   Also consider a common autogun with some alternative types of ammo and how effective it can be while firing 10 round bursts.  A long las or sniper rifle can score extra d10's of damage making it far more effective than a Holt gun to a skilled shooter anth a good roll.   I think people get obsessed with bolters due to "marine envy" but you can survive and succeed with leas bolters and more wits.

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Actually, in other threads I argued that bolter Tearing and X criticals are a lot better :-) Found it - https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/242158-arbites-combat-shotgun-typo/#comment-2632354

But the original request was about

 

16 hours ago, amuller93 said:

Ok so basicly i want to build a bolt gun ... and basicly what i want is that theire should be some sort of a personalisation when building stuff

and it's why I described exactly this process of creating

Edited by Jargal

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12 minutes ago, Techpriest support said:

If someone just wants a basic bolt weapon, period, I'd say the gun in and of itself is a simple design not much harder than a shotgun or auto pistol. I mean I just read my copy of inquisitors handbook and it had some bootleg bolt pistols in it on pg. 109 that were very elaborately made and expensive, but if you leave off the fancy stuff they add on for prestige and status a basic bolt weapon may not be hard to make.

 

"Spitfire"? It's not a bolt pistol shooting bolts, it's a modified flare launcher shooting modified flares. Rather unsafe, but what's worse, mostly useless (unless you are gambling on critical hits). Generic pistols with dum-dum or man-stopper rounds (either costs half as much as modified flares) perform better*. IHB also has Thollos (high-calibre and full auto) and sawn-off shotgun which may also be better than Spitfire, depending on the situation.

* compare with AnyDice:

output 2 + 3 + 1d10 named "Dum-dums"
output 3 + [highest 1 of 2d10] named "Tearing"

Rogue Trader has "Footfall-Pattern" (i.e. of shoddy manufacture by bilge "artisans") bolt weapons (heavier, with [Unreliable] and for some reason weaker). "Concealed Bolter-Cane" - an equivalent of a bolt pistol without magazine and as such inherently both single-shot and taking longer to reload. Perinetus-Pattern "Solo" Mk II Boltgun - has slightly better range, [Accurate, Reliable] and said to be so simple some Tech-priests grumble it's somewhat heretical. :) But it's single shot only too.

In IHB, Carnodon Precision Hand Cannon said to be based on the bolt pistol mechanism, and its price is 200 thrones vs. bolt pistol's 250. So the cost is not in bells and whistles, or muzzle brake. :)

Alas, the problem with bolters is not as much cost of the weapons as cost of ammunition.

1 hour ago, Techpriest support said:

Now I might be nice and allow some clever underground gunsmiths to make a 10 gauge shotgun round that did damage fairly comparable to a civilian bolter with shorter range. Relatively expensive of course. And once these poor man's bolter rounds came to notice, possibly by blowing nasty holes in some judges carapace armor, you'd likely have the arbites and possibly the mechanicus after you.

There are "Modified Bolt Shells" in Hostile Acquisitions. That allow to shoot a bolt from an unmodified shotgun (with range somewhere in between). Shotgun with this load also loses Reliable/gains Unreliable. Those are illegal, possibly for this very reason. Of course, they are made from bolter ammunition, not from scratch.

If you want something that burns through carapace, Voss hellgun and pistol or Sollex "Death Light" are just enough to usually do the job, cheaper than bolt weapons, and their ammunition can be recharged.

Krak grenades, obviously, make holes in things even better, but are more expensive than bolt rounds.

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My party one time was undercover in the deep underhive - really deep, so that even arbiter stub revolver, saved only because of nostalgia, was obviously too noticeable. And then they was caught in the "hunter and prey - or maybe you are the prey? - or maybe we all are preys?" game between Night Lords infiltrator, Fallen Angel Librarian posing himself as Alpha Legionnaire infiltrator and  Dark Angels Ravenwing Veteran Watch Captain, hunting the Fallen. How you think, could even Baneblade help the party then?

Edited by Jargal

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12 minutes ago, Techpriest support said:

Well, they could have hidden in it and battened down the hatches....:D

They did something like that, in fact. In the end they survived, and their understanding of their abilities and their responsibilities has changed a lot.

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You know, this sort of situation makes for great roleplaying. The players are sent in on a "routine" (BWAHAHAHAAA!!!) investigation of a seemingly minor (HAW!!!HAW!!!HAW!!! STOP YOU'RE KILLING ME!) situation and find themselves so far in over their heads the light of the first day hasn't reached where they are yet.    

   So they can either stand and die to no avail without even giving the menace a hiccup or retreat and get word back to base so action can be taken to limit the damage. Sure people will die while they retreat and summon aid. Many, many more will die if the menace is not stopped.   

 So the players get word to the authorities, and face judgement. Their actions are analyzed, they are interrogated and judged to be in the right. Their actions are not based on cowardice but wisdom and they acted properly.    


 So they acted properly and did their jobs and some people still call them cowards, of course. Welcome to the 41st millennium.  While this damend either way kind if situation coming up now and then may annoy some players at times I think it's a side effect of the fact DH is more of an open RPG setting than like OW or DW.  In those settings the players usually have very clearly defined mission and less open roleplaying options . In DW  it's much more open. Players might be sent out to accomplish A only to end up going thru B,C,D,E... and end up facing a damned daemon  after being asked to look into an odd murder or two.  

One thing about me as a GM is I would not saddle the players with a prick for an inquisitor. If their acts are right and just he will stand with them. Think Eisenhorn or Ravenor.

Edited by Techpriest support

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To be on topic, I still say a basic bolt weapon in and of itself is no more complex than a shotgun, be it pump or semi auto. Space meries and SoBs add a lot of stuff to teir bolters like gene print readers, auto sens links, tarteters, diagnostic circuits, holy inscriptions, etc. The basic weapon is not hard to make, some gangers can have a bolt pistol in DH.  The (rhymes with rich) is going to be getting bolt ammo which seems to be very complex and hard to make. You might need to accept unreliable level ammo that might fail to detonate or even detonate in the gun on a 00. Or you could make it without the dreaded tearing quality which will reduce damage in general. Or both. That might make it easier to produce or acquire.

   But cheer up, bunkie, at least you're not making a plasma weapon. In that case the weapon itself is a hellish nightmare to make and getting reliable ammo for it is going to be terribly hard. 

Edited by Techpriest support

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