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HistoryGuy

OP PCs

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In my group I have a player that looks for ways to break the game. He will find all the combinations necessary to make his character unbeatable. Just to land a single ranged attack an NPC has to get through a soak of like 5 or 6, two red dice because of sense, a ranged defence of 2, and 2 ranks of reflect and improved reflect. Melee attack are just as difficult with a melee defence of 3 and a rank or two in perry. He will usually come out of a session with a damage or two if not unscathed. 

How do I overcome this and make it challenging to him without killing all my other PCs who, even with the same XP total, get seriously hurt in the session. I could focus fire on him the whole session but that doesn't seen fair either. I think his only real challenge left is my Inquisitor one on one or Darth Vader. 

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I should also say this player like to fight me on every single ruling I make that he doesn't like. There have been times I have to stop the session for a few minutes just to look up the rules and show him the RAW. And even then he'll still complain. 

Edited by HistoryGuy

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19 minutes ago, HistoryGuy said:

I could focus fire on him the whole session but that doesn't seen fair either.

After talking to him and telling him he keeps wasting everyone's time with his constant challenging of the rules, and that he's souring the experience, if he doesn't shape up and is still around...

...that's pretty much all you can do.  If he's unbalanced himself combat-wise compared to everyone else, then effectively he's taken on the role of the shot-magnet.

All the media shows people of varying degrees of power working together to get a job done.  You can have Quigon, Obiwan, Padme, and R2D2 all in the same encounter, and nobody expects Padme and R2D2 to fight effectively, nor will they come under the same amount of fire.  Obiwan has Quigon's back, Padme will be trying to find a "diplomatic solution", and R2D2 is trying to get the blast doors open so everyone can escape.  If your "Quigon" isn't jumping out in front and taking on the bulk of the opposition, then it's time for a little gentle mockery ("dude, you're like Quigon hiding behind R2D2"), and if that doesn't work then Morality kicks in.

Basically, there is no reason he shouldn't get the brunt of the fire, that's the role he's chosen.

 

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I do like this idea because a some of the players have told me that they feel kinda useless because he is trying to make himself so good at everything. I even had a player leave and another threatening to leave because of him. I do have support from a couple other players and the one that left to start a new group. 

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20 minutes ago, Greyxi said:

We had the same kind of player in our group. Dont try to "beat" him with rule mechanics. Try to talk out of game alone with him and try to explain the problem. If this doesnt work sent him to another group which is more efficient oriented.

I do like this idea because a some of the players have told me that they feel kinda useless because he is trying to make himself so good at everything. I even had a player leave and another threatening to leave because of him. I do have support from a couple other players and the one that left to start a new group. 

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1 hour ago, HistoryGuy said:

In my group I have a player that looks for ways to break the game.

 

1 hour ago, HistoryGuy said:

I should also say this player like to fight me on every single ruling I make that he doesn't like.

I've had a couple of player like this in my many years of GMing.  The most reliable solution I've found is to stop inviting them to game (though if it's a friend (or you want to be nice), you might want to try talking to them first).  

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No PC is 'good at everything' barring silly XP totals (like tens of thousands).

This PC has good (not even overpowered - not by a long shot) defense capability. That's fine. Let him be the brick wall that holds off the opposition while the others take care of whatever actually needs to get done during the scene (which usually shouldn't be 'kill all the bad guys').

Constantly being disruptive about the rules is an actual problem and that should be dealt with. On the other hand, he might be about a rule sometimes. Generally, I'd err on the side of the PCs (not just him) and double check later if it's a plausible interpretation, as long as it can be done quickly.

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I've had issues like this with a player I have and talking to him outside of the game usually is the best way to resolve it. Stopping a game mid session to look up rules is never good practice and the player should take your ruling as law because you are the GM...if they wish to argue it later then you can tell them you will examine it via RAW later but to push on for now.

Players like this make it hard to want to continue GM'ing sometimes IMHO because if you feel opposition all the time it stops being fun. If this player has already caused other people to quit and talking doesn't work then it may be time to either do the "rocks fall he dies" moment, or stop hosting at his place and find a new place to go.

Another way is to give the players multiple points of combat, like when Darth Maul and Qui-gon are fighting behind those force field walls and Obiwan is busy waiting....instead make your group get caught behind the force field and allow your mechanic to try and solve the problem while the OP player gets to fight a ton of NPC's at once. It breaks up the combat and allows everyone to feel useful.

Another thing to try would be to start utilizing snipers...give your players an opportunity to "defend" by rolling a vigilance vs the snipers stealth...whereas normally an initiative roll doesn't require a difficulty, in this case it could be their Vigilance vs. 2-3 red and 1-2 purple along with some setbacks or boosts depending on the situation (noisy streets, night time/darkness, stealth suit, etc.) A bounty hunter that is coming after a Jedi that powerful is bound to be a powerhouse himself, so utilizing traps that they won't be able to get out of easily, or using Glop Grenades to not allow them to parry, reflect, there are quite a few options out there...you just have to look for the weird ways to use them!

 

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3 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

I could focus fire on him the whole session but that doesn't seen fair either. 

Why?  Anyone with 30 seconds of tactical combat training is always taught remove the greatest threat first.  I think he's lighting a neon sign over his head 'shoot me' personally.

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10 minutes ago, HistoryGuy said:

Is there a talent that makes it to where PCs can't reflect or perry attacks other than that one crit?

Glop Grenades or any of THESE weapons with active ensnare quality. If he is ensnared then he can't use his lightsaber...if he can't use his lightsaber then he can't parry or reflect.

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3 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

In my group I have a player that looks for ways to break the game. He will find all the combinations necessary to make his character unbeatable. Just to land a single ranged attack an NPC has to get through a soak of like 5 or 6, two red dice because of sense, a ranged defence of 2, and 2 ranks of reflect and improved reflect. Melee attack are just as difficult with a melee defence of 3 and a rank or two in perry. He will usually come out of a session with a damage or two if not unscathed. 

How do I overcome this and make it challenging to him without killing all my other PCs who, even with the same XP total, get seriously hurt in the session. I could focus fire on him the whole session but that doesn't seen fair either. I think his only real challenge left is my Inquisitor one on one or Darth Vader. 

A soak of 5 or 6 isn't that bad. High brawn characters with just off the shelf padded armor can get you there. Some of the more bogus builds get soak of 11 or 12. Further ranged defense of 2 or 3 isn't all that hard to get either if a player wants it. Your best bet is to use weapons with pierce, as they don't do any more damage, but can get through higher soak characters.

But more to your point, you have a player that likes to min/max, and that is a challenge for any GM to deal with. It is not an easy challenge. If you are seeking in game ways to challenge him, I absolutely would create tough bad guys that do nothing but attack his character. Why? Well because he is clearly the most dangerous opponent in a fight and smart tactics would suggest he should bear the brunt of the attacks. Or, putting it differently: If the PCs were in a fight where one opponent was the clear threat, who would they as a party attack first? Turnaround is fair play; there is no reason why the NPCs should be forced to use sub-optimal tactics.

Oh, and to give you a heads up in case this player hasn't figured it out yet: Autofire + Jury Rig is one of the most broken builds in the game. Some may argue there are other broken builds, but this one comes up most frequently on these forums.

 

3 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

I should also say this player like to fight me on every single ruling I make that he doesn't like. There have been times I have to stop the session for a few minutes just to look up the rules and show him the RAW. And even then he'll still complain. 

Well this is a different issue that cannot be solved by game mechanics. It requires some perhaps uncomfortable conversations with this player outside of the game. My recommendation would be to simply state that during play you will always seek to make the most fair judgement you can, but that your rulings are not up for debate. Once the session is over you are happy to discuss rulings and adjust for the next session, but game time will not be interrupted because a player disagrees with a ruling. There of course may be some times a GM stops the game to read a rule due to simply unfamiliarity, but once a decision is made, its made. Move on.

Further, out of game would be a good time to address this player's overall penchant for wanting to create overpowered characters. The GM is a player at the table too and has a right to as much as fun as everybody. The game is not supposed to be GM vs players, it is supposed to be collaborative storytelling. Let him know your frustrations about his desire to min/max everything, and that your goal isn't to take away his fun, but to make it fun for everybody. 

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1 hour ago, HistoryGuy said:

The problem with this is we meet at his place.

OK, I don't want to minimize this aspect, but this should really be the least of the concerns. I mean my last FTF gaming was done at a local game store that had table space (we did this for years). My current game has two players in Minnesota (me included), two in Texas (opposite sides of the state), and one in California.

Some creativity here can solve this issue pretty easily. I certainly wouldn't allow this person to hold over you heads "I get to be a d-bag because you have to use my place to play".

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3 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

OK, I don't want to minimize this aspect, but this should really be the least of the concerns. I mean my last FTF gaming was done at a local game store that had table space (we did this for years). My current game has two players in Minnesota (me included), two in Texas (opposite sides of the state), and one in California.

Some creativity here can solve this issue pretty easily. I certainly wouldn't allow this person to hold over you heads "I get to be a d-bag because you have to use my place to play".

Seize the initiative I say.  Get a move or two ahead and seek out an alternate game play location to be ready if he throws down that card.  Only if though, he might just enjoy being challenged and having waves of targets thrown at him and discover getting beat up and winning is still fun.

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3 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

I do like this idea because a some of the players have told me that they feel kinda useless because he is trying to make himself so good at everything. I even had a player leave and another threatening to leave because of him. I do have support from a couple other players and the one that left to start a new group. 

If this is the case, and unless this one player is an unavoidable player (being one of your best mates or something like that), call back the player that left and kick the guy out. Or ban his maxed out character handing him a non optimized PC sheet (scout diplomat, for example?) and let's start anew from there. 

Talking to him is a first option, but there are others, and the group's fun is most important here. For what you say I would not enjoy that game, and it seems neither your nor the other plauers are having fun either.... and that is sad :(  RPGing should be about everybody (GM included) having lots of fun at the table :)

 

Regarding the place, I have played both RPGs AND WARGAMES at pubs, local libraries, local parks, cars, and in bed (NOT that kind of RPG... well not ONLY that kind of RPGing anyway) for years. Houses are great et al, specially if you want to order pizza and have the cold beers and coke refrigerated, but throwing dice can be done in a grass field or in a bench as easily. 

 

Cheers,
Xavi

 

Edited by MonCal

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4 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

I should also say this player like to fight me on every single ruling I make that he doesn't like. There have been times I have to stop the session for a few minutes just to look up the rules and show him the RAW. And even then he'll still complain. 

That sounds like a nightmare, sorry you're having to deal with it.  I was going to suggest you hit him in his dump stat, but it seems like his noggin is a better recipient.  

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If you want to beat the character in combat, bring NPCs with high Gunnery and Missile Tubes. Reflect is nice and all but his soak will get ignored with the weapon's breach quality and he's looking at 20+ damage before reflecting.

 

There's also Auto-Fire weapons.

 

You can also spend 2 triumphs on a successful combat check to destroy his armor or lightsaber in combat.

 

You are the GM, there is so many ways to defeat the character in combat. I would say though that the problem seems less about the character and more about the player, so you should heed the advice of the others in this thread and talk to the player out of game before trying to "beat him at his own game", which will likely just upset him and subsequently everyone else.

Edited by GroggyGolem

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Kidding aside, the guy wants to play an overpowered tank and hey, there's no problem with that.  A GM can work with that.  But the constant arguments, and the fact that you're playing at his place making the entire table uncomfortable?  Well, that's not something game rules can fix.  

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Oh, and have him seduced, drugged and thrown into jail by that undercover ISD agent. Then the player needs to use another characgter (convenienly provided by you) to rescue his old character alongside the group. if they decide to rescue him, that is. 

looking at his character sheet see where he doesn't shine AT ALL (and making sure someone else does) and centering a couple sessions around those other abilities can also work to downgrade the importance of the character and jedi master-level combat encounters. 

Cheers,
Xavi

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Quite frankly, you are way past the point where you should be moving your game and getting rid of this problem player. Yes, you should sit down and talk to him and see if he will change his behavior, but I doubt that will work if he has driven off one player and is fixing to drive off another. 

As for in game things to do, you are the GM, not a PC, so the PC rules dont apply. You can make a character the is 'Super Sniper' with the talent 'Does WT+1 damage with no soak just before init is rolled.' You can have a BBEG with the 'You Miss' talent. What is says on the tin, when you activate it, the attack misses no matter what the roll.

When someone is playing against the rules of the game instead of in game, you dont need to play nice, or by the rules of PCs. You can have 11 ISD show up and pinpoint bombard the problem PC from orbit then immediately jump out. You can have a sith lord jump out of a random air vent and make an attack with 1100 boost dice, lopping off all of the PCs limbs, then jumps into another vent before anyone can do anything. You dont have to play nice.

On the other hand this is being a passive agressive (donkey synonym here). It is not a good thing to do and generally just makes alot of out of game drama.

So sit down, you and your group, and discuss this with the player. Tell him flat out that he is driving people out of the group, and that his behavior is not acceptable. If he wont change, then boot him. You said the player who left is making his own group, well it turns out you have a group for him, once you get rid of the problem. 

Edited by korjik

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I am currently working on how to arrange it so the second group can play elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, MonCal said:

If this is the case, and unless this one player is an unavoidable player (being one of your best mates or something like that), call back the player that left and kick the guy out. 

The player that left was my Cousin and the next one that's ready to quit is my wife. So I know the change of location will help. The problem player is just a friend who offered to let us play at his place. 

Edited by HistoryGuy

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