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Kaimuund

Another Lightsaber Topic - Using Lorrdian Crystals and Defense

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If these have already been answered, please post a link. I've been looking, and I found a number of similar threads, but they didn't answer the question, and were mainly in other areas. 

So here are the situations and my currently assumed outcomes:

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded ---

--- Character Defense Melee 2 / Ranged 2

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base ---

--- Character Defense Melee 3 / Ranged 3

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 3 / Ranged 2

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 4 / Ranged 3

 

Now, does this work?

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded ---

--- Character Defense Melee 4 / Ranged 4

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base ---

--- Character Defense Melee 5 / Ranged 5

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 5 / Ranged 4

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 6 / Ranged 5

 

Do these numbers check out? There is a lot of stacking going on here, and it doesn't feel correct. 

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I'll have to check my books (they're at home and I'm about to start class) but I recall that you can only get defense from one source (not including talents and environment) i.e. only armor, weapons, etc. 

Someone please double check me on this not entirely certain. Gonna check my books when I get home.

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1 hour ago, Kaimuund said:

If these have already been answered, please post a link. I've been looking, and I found a number of similar threads, but they didn't answer the question, and were mainly in other areas. 

So here are the situations and my currently assumed outcomes:

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded ---

--- Character Defense Melee 2 / Ranged 2

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base ---

--- Character Defense Melee 3 / Ranged 3

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 3 / Ranged 2

Single Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 4 / Ranged 3

 

Now, does this work?

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded ---

--- Character Defense Melee 4 / Ranged 4

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base ---

--- Character Defense Melee 5 / Ranged 5

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 5 / Ranged 4

Double Bladed Lightsaber with Lorrdian Crystal, fully upgraded Plus Armored Robes with 1 Defense Base with mod curved hilt +1 defense ---

--- Character Defense Melee 6 / Ranged 5

 

Do these numbers check out? There is a lot of stacking going on here, and it doesn't feel correct. 

As currently defined in RAW by my understanding, you only gain Defense from the highest-available source.  So, a fully-upgraded Lorrdian Crystal with modified Curved Hilt will give you 3 Melee/2 Ranged Defense, period, regardless of any armor or talents you have (unless said armor or talents grant you more than 3 Melee/2 Ranged defense). 

Double-bladed lightsabers do not, to my knowledge, double the available Defense.

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For starters, a double-bladed lightsaber doesn't give you extra benefits from lightsaber crystals. See page 176 of the F&D core book:

Quote

Although technically, this weapon contains two light-saber crystals (one for each blade), for the purposes of gameplay it is treated as having a single crystal.

To the other question, Stneu73 and SJanson note, I believe the latest developer ruling says you just get the defense from the best source. This is frequently house-ruled, as many people find it counter-intuitive compared to the wording in the books, but your GM may differ.

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So the armor and weapon would not stack, even if the armor is Base Defense, and the weapon is Defensive/Reflective? 

Thank you on the double-bladed lightsaber. I think I misunderstood the way it was written and was thinking of it as two attached lightsabers, rather than one lightsaber with Linked 1. 

 

So then, wearing Armored Robes and Wielding the Single Lightsaber with Curved Hilt Modded (+1 Defensive) and fully upgraded Lorrdian crystal, would the defenses be:

4/3 or 3/2?

14 minutes ago, SJanson said:

As currently defined in RAW by my understanding, you only gain Defense from the highest-available source.  So, a fully-upgraded Lorrdian Crystal with modified Curved Hilt will give you 3 Melee/2 Ranged Defense, period, regardless of any armor or talents you have (unless said armor or talents grant you more than 3 Melee/2 Ranged defense). 

Double-bladed lightsabers do not, to my knowledge, double the available Defense.

I just want to get a confirmation on this. 

 

I've played EotE like, twice, and my GM has played like, 4 times. We have a lot of experience in Star Wars Saga Edition, but as DnD based systems go, it was kind of nuts. This system is great, but very...loosely worded?

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1 minute ago, Kaimuund said:

So then, wearing Armored Robes and Wielding the Single Lightsaber with Curved Hilt Modded (+1 Defensive) and fully upgraded Lorrdian crystal, would the defenses be:

4/3 or 3/2?

By RAW, it would be 3/2. 

For my players, because I have characters with 3 Melee/3 Ranged Defense between armor and talents, I house-rule to allow characters to stack Defense up to 4, like ships do.  So, there's still a good reason to spend a manuever to take cover even if you have great armor (and I still allow active powers like Protect to stack Defense beyond 4).   Again, this is my HOUSE-RULE for the group - by RAW you simply use the best possible single source of Defense (which in your example, is your lightsaber with Lorrdian crystal and Curved Hilt).

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RAW: There are five separate sources for defense:

- Armor: base defense, mods, talents (e.g.: Improved armor master, Jury rig)
- Weapon: Defensive quality or talents which give Defensive quality
- Force power: Protect, control upgrade: spending advantage gains defense
- Defensive stance 
- Special talents, which categorically simply says: you increase your defense by 1 and does not provide any additional text. (e.g.: Sixth Sense for Force Exile, Forewarning for Warleader)

> Armor / Weapon / Protect Force Power - only the highest apply, but calculate separately for ranged and melee defense

> Defensive stance and special talents are modifying these values 

As a rule of thumb: wherever it speaks about 'gain defense' it's in the first three category, 'increase defense' can be in any of these categories, you have to read the text and speak with your GM.

Example1:
Local law enforcement in riot armor (Defense: R 1 /  M 1) equipped with riot shield (Defense R 2 / M 2) -> result (Defense R 2 / M 2). 

Example2:
Bounty hunter gadgeteer with Crafted Defense 2 armor, jury rigged (melee defense) and with Improved armor master and with Superior Reflexes and with Defensive stance (R 3 / M 6) ... I think this is the max without force powers (from armor), but I'm ready to be proven wrong. (...and Oggdude's tool calculates it perfectly).

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On 10/3/2017 at 9:04 PM, Daeglan said:

I t ink the way it was originally intended was you take the best base defense then if you have a item that adds defense you add that. But the devs have gone back and forth on it.

I think that is how it was at first, and is how it's listed in the last FAQ update from a couple years ago.

However, that was before sourcebooks started getting published which began offering weapons and items that gave multiple ranks of Defensive and/or Deflection, thus leading to Melee and Ranged Defense values that were starting to get a little nuts if players built their characters in just the right way.  It was probably upon reflection and seeing (or at least hearing about) folks with characters that had defense scores of 5 and up simply due to item stacking that they opted to nerf it and just say that a character only takes the best value out of the lot.

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On 10/10/2017 at 3:39 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

I think that is how it was at first, and is how it's listed in the last FAQ update from a couple years ago.

However, that was before sourcebooks started getting published which began offering weapons and items that gave multiple ranks of Defensive and/or Deflection, thus leading to Melee and Ranged Defense values that were starting to get a little nuts if players built their characters in just the right way.  It was probably upon reflection and seeing (or at least hearing about) folks with characters that had defense scores of 5 and up simply due to item stacking that they opted to nerf it and just say that a character only takes the best value out of the lot.

Which i think is problematic. I think in genesys they do it the way i said with a max of 5 or so. Which i think is better as you can benefit fro. Both to a point.

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6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Which i think is problematic. I think in genesys they do it the way i said with a max of 5 or so. Which i think is better as you can benefit fro. Both to a point.

Well, the last answer was that defense was "under review," probably as they were doing testing for what would become Genesys and testing out different means and methods to address the issue.

Now that Genesys is pretty much done and finalized, hopefully we'll see an updated FAQ for Star Wars that uses the Genesys guideline of capping defense at 4.

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