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Moridan

Seeking FAQ/Clarification on 2 Card Interactions

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My buddies and I have been playing a lot of TTS lately to quickly test out combos and fine tune our decks.  We came across these two card interactions that we... disagreed on.

 

1) The interaction of Prized Possession and Endurance.  The first takes an opponents die, but the second essentially adds the die back when removed.  How should these interact?

2) Cad Bane overriding Ambush Upgrades.  As an Action, play an upgrade on Cad Bane (paying its cost).  Then active him.  But what happens if you override an upgrade card with the same value of card, which by the rules makes the upgrade Free.  Free is described in the rules as not paying a cost.  So... would the first part of Cad Bane's action not be met when overriding an upgrade with the same cost upgrade?  I fully understand this very much a "rules lawyer" opinion, but something of a contention between my buddies.  

Thank you for your feedback.

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3 hours ago, Moridan said:

My buddies and I have been playing a lot of TTS lately to quickly test out combos and fine tune our decks.  We came across these two card interactions that we... disagreed on.

 

1) The interaction of Prized Possession and Endurance.  The first takes an opponents die, but the second essentially adds the die back when removed.  How should these interact?

2) Cad Bane overriding Ambush Upgrades.  As an Action, play an upgrade on Cad Bane (paying its cost).  Then active him.  But what happens if you override an upgrade card with the same value of card, which by the rules makes the upgrade Free.  Free is described in the rules as not paying a cost.  So... would the first part of Cad Bane's action not be met when overriding an upgrade with the same cost upgrade?  I fully understand this very much a "rules lawyer" opinion, but something of a contention between my buddies.  

Thank you for your feedback.

1) I would agree with Rogue 4 that they don't interact. I couldn't cite a rule or anything but the idea of prized possession is that your opponent took you dice (opponent removed and put it on their side of the board), which is different from simply "removing" your dice as normal. You no longer have control of that dice to play endurance's effect.

2) I believe "paying its cost" is fulfilled by the replacing of the card. You paid the cost in the form of the trade. If you had some other card that allowed you to reduce the cost of the upgrade down to 0, would you say you haven't "paid the cost"? The point of the "paying its cost" language is to let you know that you don't get to play the upgrade for free.

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5 hours ago, Moridan said:

My buddies and I have been playing a lot of TTS lately to quickly test out combos and fine tune our decks.  We came across these two card interactions that we... disagreed on.

 

1) The interaction of Prized Possession and Endurance.  The first takes an opponents die, but the second essentially adds the die back when removed.  How should these interact?

2) Cad Bane overriding Ambush Upgrades.  As an Action, play an upgrade on Cad Bane (paying its cost).  Then active him.  But what happens if you override an upgrade card with the same value of card, which by the rules makes the upgrade Free.  Free is described in the rules as not paying a cost.  So... would the first part of Cad Bane's action not be met when overriding an upgrade with the same cost upgrade?  I fully understand this very much a "rules lawyer" opinion, but something of a contention between my buddies.  

Thank you for your feedback.

1)  This question is going to have to wait for the FAQ.  There has been a lot of debate. and based on the wording of the cards it can really go either way.

2)  This one can be answered.  You are absolutely still Playing an upgrade when you reduce its cost by overwriting.  Cad's action does trigger in this case.  Refer to the Rule Sheet page 1, under "Actions - Playing an Upgrade":  When you play an upgrade, you can choose to replace an upgrade that is already attached to that character.  To do so, you only spend resources equal to the difference.....

The language clearly states that the overwrite mechanic is still "Playing" an upgrade. 

I think the current FAQ also addresses this (page 26):  What happens if I replace an upgrade with another upgrade that costs fewer resources?  You play the new upgrade for free.  Again, the word "Play" is still in effect.

So go Cad!!

 

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2 hours ago, TheNameWasTaken said:

It's not in the FAQ yet, but there is a ruling by Lukas about Prized Possession vs. Endurance - Endurance can't roll the possession'ed die. See https://www.facebook.com/groups/swdestiny/permalink/2009478239274782/ for reference (though I'm not sure you'll be able to see it if you're not in the Star Wars Destiny group on FB).

Now that Luka is "removed" from the game, does the ruling still apply??

Just kidding.  Thanks for this reference!

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Prized Possession says that you may not roll that dice in or remove it from PP unless PP Leaves play.

NEGATIVE EFFECTS p19:

Negative effects take precedence over positive effects. If an effect says a player cannot do something, then they cannot do it, even if another effect says they can.

Thus, Endurance cannot remove the dice.

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WotC played Prized Possession on FFG and took Lukas.

Clearly once prized possession takes the die, you have to remove PP to get it back. The upgrade holds the die.

If you play a 2 cost upgrade on Cad to replace a 2 cost upgrade, the cost is zero and zero is the paid cost. Arguing that doesn't work is a great definition of rules lawyering.

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7 hours ago, jedi moose said:

1) I would agree with Rogue 4 that they don't interact. I couldn't cite a rule or anything but the idea of prized possession is that your opponent took you dice (opponent removed and put it on their side of the board), which is different from simply "removing" your dice as normal. You no longer have control of that dice to play endurance's effect.

Per the email from Lukas the conclusion here is correct, but the logic is off.  Prized Possession does remove the die.  Doing more with it after you remove it doesn't change that it was removed.  The "it did more than remove" isn't really relevant to the question.

On Cad Bane, remember that italicized text is not actually ability text - it's just a reminder of game rules and how they interact with the ability.  I hate them, honestly - their use is inconsistent, they often cause more confusion than they solve (like this) and have more than once been wrong.  Regardless, the "pay its cost" is not a requirement for the ability, just a reminder that when you play something, you pay the cost no matter what allows you to play it.

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I want to thank all of you for your feedback on this.  In my OP, I portrayed various points of view.  I personally despise rules lawyering, which is one of the things that turned me off to older editions of Warhammer.  I enjoy Destiny because the rules are intended to be simple and straight forward, and that assumption is how we should address any potential conflicts between wording.  

Destiny truly has a wonderful community.  You all rock!

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