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Nephlim24

Rebels dominate the base set?

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Here is my case for why rebels may/should dominate for at least when only the core is out.

1. Luke

Has much more mobility over his Father and with it a built in light saber throw because his gun for some reason has pireceing. So he can go around picking off key units pretty well. And unless there is a mobility force cardVader just isn't scary enough for me. Luke can just get to where he needs to be easier.

2. Armor. 

The mini walkers have two ways of being brought down, Vader and rockets. Vader should be easy to avoid if the walker doesn't walk toward Vader and with its big blaster it seems like it'll be able to aim and shoot most of the game if you get it on a good vantage point which it can because it has the climbing ability. 

The rocket launcher is a weakness but the amount of shooting and having to take a reload action from the looks of it. Just doesn't seem worth damaging a walker. So maybe if there is a fast reload upgrade and the rocket launcher and regular troopers can shoot at different things, then maybe it's worth it but until armor gun platform is going to be hard to bring down.

3 Troopers?

Too early to really say that rebels will outclass their stormtroopers counterparts. But I think they will have more versatility, there shooting has 1/8 more of a chance to hit than a trooper, but also 1/6 more of a chance at dying. Stormtroopers stay alive better by themselves, but almost have to aim to be able to be threatening. Rebels instead of relying on aim can dodge, over and over and over. So in addition to being naturally more punishing, they can also just dodge and be able to stay on an objective much more reliably because the might as well have cover 1 when they take a doge action so focus fire isn't nearly as effective. 

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While Im inclined to agree with most of your damage and defense speculations, I think you may have missed one thing. Legion isn't a deathmatch. Its quite the opposite. Its an objective/ mission based game. Ones ability to deal out or take damage is a secondary importance compared to a units ability to complete objectives. Im not saying the Empire is better, im just saying you're viewing one aspect that isnt the most important aspect of the game. 

Vader is slow? Who cares. Pop him on an objective marker and watch anyone try to take it. Vader is content collecting points and slaughtering anyone who contests him. Bring extra forces? Thats fine, those speeders will take three move actions, and move halfway across the board to claim a marker you left unattended. I think its a pretty even match up with different strengths and weaknesses. 

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1. Both of vaders command cards. Need mobility? Trade 2 activations for an action next turn with implacable, and have vader likely go 1st because it's int 1. Also, luke has to use actions whereas vader seems to have a lot of action economy in his keywords allowing for double moves even without the command card. And you have to (mostly) keep that range 2 cohesion to use commands effect on other units.

Edit: i also expect force push may get stapled to vader....

It's not cut and dry if you gear and play him creatively...

 

2. Valid yet, we'll have to see what comes with wave 1, also speeder bikes front arc  as a full unit is 2 of each dice, impact 1 ( does that make it 2 mods because 2 models?)

 

3. You're forgetting pinning and fallback rules, with only a 1 morale they can't just dig in and wait it out under focus fire without penalty. Also, sitting still opens them up to getting reamed by speeder bikes and vader/force push

Edited by Ralgon

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I'm going to be playing empire mostly because squashing rebels is too much fun to not, that being said. 

Vader will be a beast, I'm thinking saber throw and the exhaustible free dodge force powers. But in an 800 point game that is over 1/4 of your points. So yes you will have that one objective on lock down then that's kind of it, his double move puts him about where a single move for Luke would (from what people are guessing) I think an exhaustible force movement power that increases the models speed by 1 or to max for the turn is what he will need to be the death dealer we want. 

As for the rebel troopers getting focus fired. Yes the still can be espically if left out in the open. But the rewards for focus fire is usually being able to force an opponent to burn their tokens. While suppression will add up, morale is added up so five rebel troopers is 5 morale put them in light cover and that'll subtract 2 hits from say a five man squad of stormies that one a good day will hit 3 times maybe for with rerolls. And so on. Stormtroopers will be great when you can put them in cover and start aiming espically with their bigger gun, but I think the rebel troopers will be much more versitle in what they can do from turn to turn. 

Im excited to see how bikes will do. They have solid mobility and that front gun is great but I'm curious where they will land in their consistency of late game objective grabbing and their ability to get their front gun where it needs to be. 

The thing that makes me think rebels will really get away with core set victories espically at higher points is everything is cheaper, troopers and hq are both cheaper, the walker is cheaper than the bikes without equipment and I'll double check but I don't think even with the cannon that it goes over what the bikes cost. 

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35 minutes ago, Nephlim24 said:

I'm going to be playing empire mostly because squashing rebels is too much fun to not, that being said. 

Vader will be a beast, I'm thinking saber throw and the exhaustible free dodge force powers. But in an 800 point game that is over 1/4 of your points. So yes you will have that one objective on lock down then that's kind of it, his double move puts him about where a single move for Luke would (from what people are guessing) I think an exhaustible force movement power that increases the models speed by 1 or to max for the turn is what he will need to be the death dealer we want. 

As for the rebel troopers getting focus fired. Yes the still can be espically if left out in the open. But the rewards for focus fire is usually being able to force an opponent to burn their tokens. While suppression will add up, morale is added up so five rebel troopers is 5 morale put them in light cover and that'll subtract 2 hits from say a five man squad of stormies that one a good day will hit 3 times maybe for with rerolls. And so on. Stormtroopers will be great when you can put them in cover and start aiming espically with their bigger gun, but I think the rebel troopers will be much more versitle in what they can do from turn to turn. 

Im excited to see how bikes will do. They have solid mobility and that front gun is great but I'm curious where they will land in their consistency of late game objective grabbing and their ability to get their front gun where it needs to be. 

The thing that makes me think rebels will really get away with core set victories espically at higher points is everything is cheaper, troopers and hq are both cheaper, the walker is cheaper than the bikes without equipment and I'll double check but I don't think even with the cannon that it goes over what the bikes cost. 

it's 5 pnts cheaper if you take the rotary or same for the laser (which trades r4 for 3 black dice until the imps get armor at which point impact becomes relevant).

 

Looking in on it atm i wouldn't be surprised at all to see 3 bare minimum trooper squads with armor/bike spam sporting long range commlinks becoming the norm for full lists, bypassing vaders poor movement for commands

Edited by Ralgon

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2 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

Looking in on it atm i wouldn't be surprised at all to see 3 bare minimum trooper squads with armor/bike spam becoming the norm for full lists.

I think they'll be able to avoid it because at this point only troopers (not sure if keyword or the unit type) can claim/hold objectives. At least i hope so, while id love to run a couple of at-st's with bikes on endor I'm hoping troops are too important for the objective stuff for them to be min maxed like 40k

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6 minutes ago, Nephlim24 said:

I think they'll be able to avoid it because at this point only troopers (not sure if keyword or the unit type) can claim/hold objectives. At least i hope so, while id love to run a couple of at-st's with bikes on endor I'm hoping troops are too important for the objective stuff for them to be min maxed like 40k

yeah the rank ( it uses something like the 40k force org chart before it went to detachments). Even so i'm not sure, the defensive surge + red defense may end up being enough to have them turtle up while the heavy hitters run close support, and using commands on those units anywhere on the battlefield thanks to comlinks.

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13 hours ago, AldousSnow said:

While Im inclined to agree with most of your damage and defense speculations, I think you may have missed one thing. Legion isn't a deathmatch. Its quite the opposite. Its an objective/ mission based game. Ones ability to deal out or take damage is a secondary importance compared to a units ability to complete objectives. Im not saying the Empire is better, im just saying you're viewing one aspect that isnt the most important aspect of the game. 

Vader is slow? Who cares. Pop him on an objective marker and watch anyone try to take it. Vader is content collecting points and slaughtering anyone who contests him. Bring extra forces? Thats fine, those speeders will take three move actions, and move halfway across the board to claim a marker you left unattended. I think its a pretty even match up with different strengths and weaknesses. 

This guy gets it!  

 

 Power is half the battle.  

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So I've been thinking about this a bit recently (my job involves staring at a lot of loading bars, don't judge me!). I don't know if I've reached a solution. I don't think I'm going to try playing the game until I actually get my Core Set. However, in playing with the initial numbers, it makes sense to me for the Rebel player to max out on their Corps/Trooper units. Likewise, I think the Imperial player may tend toward a low Trooper unit, maybe even the minimum of 3, while including lots of Support and Armor.

My current armies are something like 796 point Rebel w/ 6 trooper units and an AT-RT and 800 point Imp with 3 troopers and 3 speeders. The Rebels will play pretty basic: try to make the most of Nimble by getting to the objective and holding it. Conversely, the Imperials will play in waves: the speeders swoop in and soften up the Rebels, hopefully tipping the field in favor of the troopers. They'll really want to focus fire something down that first round, then hopefully severely damage something during their escape in the second round. The storm troopers will use that first turn to double-move into better positions for the following turns. Not on top of the objectives, but close enough to shoot at them from cover until the final round, when they should be able to swoop in with support from Vader to roll the board.

I think the DLT-19 trooper will be the more useful upgrade to take. It has a little bit of Impact, so it can hit Heavies. It also doesn't have the movement restrictions. I think the MPL-S7 Ion trooper will be more popular than the Z6 trooper. As much fun as throwing a fistful of dice is, those whites won't be as consistent.

The key to keep the speeders useful will be Comlinks on the bikes and a coordinated assault...which makes me somewhat concerned that, like X-Wing players currently claim (don't play enough to know), the Imperials will be fighting and uphill battle. Or maybe not. Need more data!

Also, I think the Imperials are going to get the awesome Heavy units early on, which will probably tip the scales their direction for a bit.

Just a collection of my thoughts on the matter :)

Edited by Cheek
Clarifying Imperial tactics

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Just to push this along a little i did some of the basic unit math.

Assumes a rebel unit+ extra trooper+ z6

Assumes trooper unit +extra  trooper + dt19

No cover, No aim this disadvantages the imps with precise or the rebs with added targeting scopes but also adds way too many variables depending on type of dice rerolled to be a simple post

 

Rebels- basic trooper has 50% chance to crit/hit per die z6 has 25% chance to hit/crit per die

On average that means 2.5 dmg from the basic's and 1.5 from the z6

5 dmg total

 

Imp's- Basic trooper has 38% chance to hit (inc surge conversion)  and the dt19 has 87.5% per die

average is 1.9 from the troopers and 1.75 from the heavy

3.65 dmg total

 

Defensively

the rebel has a 33% chance to dodge inc surge conversion (reduces avg to 2.4) + crits

the imp has 50 % chance to dodge   (reduces avg to 2.5)+ crits

 

So it's REALLY not clear cut.

Edited by Ralgon

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This really sounds like a game that shouldn't be played for a couple of years.  I started x-wing after wave 5 and imperial assault after Hoth and Armada after wave5

all had better experiences because there were more options to choose from  other than the core set and wave 1.

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22 hours ago, buckero0 said:

This really sounds like a game that shouldn't be played for a couple of years.  I started x-wing after wave 5 and imperial assault after Hoth and Armada after wave5

all had better experiences because there were more options to choose from  other than the core set and wave 1.

But if you, and everyone else adopted that mindset, then the game wouldn't get additional waves.

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11 hours ago, Tirion said:

With incomplete cards and rules... Weird

Yeah.  We don't have a full rule set.  We're still missing pretty critical things.  How exactly does suppression work?  How does the reaction mechanic work?  How much terrain is supposed to be on a board and how is it placed?  Etc, etc.

We know enough to get a general flavor for the game, but not enough to start posting meaningful battle reports.  The Rebels always win!  That's cool.  How many units broke and ran due to excessive suppression tokens?  How many victory tokens did each side have?  Which mission did you play?  Was there a condition in effect?  What was the deployment zone like?  How much terrain was on the board?  How much of that terrain was line of sight blocking?  How did you handle not having real speed sticks?  Did you just guess at their length and the angles of the clicks for turning bikes and AT-RTs?  Etc, etc.

I want this game to be out NOW just like a lot of us and I'm excitedly reading every scrap of information that comes out.  I'm not playing proxy games, though, because we don't know some very important rules.

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12 hours ago, Tirion said:

With incomplete cards and rules... Weird

 

56 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Yeah.  We don't have a full rule set.  We're still missing pretty critical things.  How exactly does suppression work?  How does the reaction mechanic work?  How much terrain is supposed to be on a board and how is it placed?  Etc, etc.

We know enough to get a general flavor for the game, but not enough to start posting meaningful battle reports.  The Rebels always win!  That's cool.  How many units broke and ran due to excessive suppression tokens?  How many victory tokens did each side have?  Which mission did you play?  Was there a condition in effect?  What was the deployment zone like?  How much terrain was on the board?  How much of that terrain was line of sight blocking?  How did you handle not having real speed sticks?  Did you just guess at their length and the angles of the clicks for turning bikes and AT-RTs?  Etc, etc.

I want this game to be out NOW just like a lot of us and I'm excitedly reading every scrap of information that comes out.  I'm not playing proxy games, though, because we don't know some very important rules.

 

If both of you would direct your view to my profile image..... :)

Thanks,

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On 9/30/2017 at 7:07 AM, Nephlim24 said:

While suppression will add up, morale is added up so five rebel troopers is 5 morale.

You sound so sure of this, please link where it has been confirmed. 

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9 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

You sound so sure of this, please link where it has been confirmed. 

I seem to remember hearing it when Alex Davy was running the demo for Team Covenant (also could have been the podcast recording).  I'm not 100% sure though.  Makes sense though, morale goes down and your squad is more likely to break and run the more people are dying around you.

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On 10/2/2017 at 9:25 PM, Tirion said:

With incomplete cards and rules... Weird

100% this.

Can't believe the amount of people trashing a game that has not been released. And we still don't have the rules.

 

 

What can you do though. It's the internet and everyone turns into a hater. 

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10 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

100% this.

Can't believe the amount of people trashing a game that has not been released. And we still don't have the rules.

 

 

What can you do though. It's the internet and everyone turns into a hater. 

I don't see that much trashing tbh. To me,people seem to just pointing put stuff that look out of place/raise questions from what we know.

 

Also, I hope I'm wrong, but afaik FFG has a less than stellar track record with core sets balance. I'm not familiar enough with Imperial Assault and Runewars, but in X-Wing the TIE Fighters have always been vastly better than X-Wings and I know from the guys in my community that the Armada core set wasn't great either.

 

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3 hours ago, LordBlades said:

I don't see that much trashing tbh. To me,people seem to just pointing put stuff that look out of place/raise questions from what we know.

 

Also, I hope I'm wrong, but afaik FFG has a less than stellar track record with core sets balance. I'm not familiar enough with Imperial Assault and Runewars, but in X-Wing the TIE Fighters have always been vastly better than X-Wings and I know from the guys in my community that the Armada core set wasn't great either.

 

While it is true that X-Wings were (are) weaker than TIE Fighters at a 100 point scale, within the core set rebels were actually slightly ahead (ridiculously when using Luke with R2-D2, the TIEs stood no chance), because of the differences in variance. Sure, over a longer game the TIEs were more efficient, but the X-Wing could easily snowball off a lucky one-two shot thanks to 3 dice primary versus 3 hitpoints and higher pilot skill. TIEs are only stronger once their numbers are great enough to counterbalance the effect of such outcomes. In my experience (playing more than 8 games with just the core set before commiting to a buy in) the X-Wing core set was well balanced if you avoided the Luke + R2D2 combination in deathmatch games.

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