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6 hours ago, LordBlades said:

I think claiming that Nym is 'simply BETTER than Miranda*, period' is ill informed at best, malicious at worst. 

Not that it matters which is best, you can take both! And yes, I'd say Nym is better than Miranda, he's statted better (1 point more for: more HP, +1 Attack, and an EPT slot, plus a MUCH (SO MUCH) better dial). The only thing Miranda has that he doesn't is SLAM. However, Nym has Adv. Sensors, Barrel Roll, and PS 10- which I think is FAR better than SLAM/Adv. Slam.

Miranda's not bad, mind you. But Nym is on a whole other level of points efficiency.

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7 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Not that it matters which is best, you can take both! And yes, I'd say Nym is better than Miranda, he's statted better (1 point more for: more HP, +1 Attack, and an EPT slot, plus a MUCH (SO MUCH) better dial). The only thing Miranda has that he doesn't is SLAM. However, Nym has Adv. Sensors, Barrel Roll, and PS 10- which I think is FAR better than SLAM/Adv. Slam.

Miranda's not bad, mind you. But Nym is on a whole other level of points efficiency.

And regen.

REGEN.

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4 hours ago, Squark said:

It's important to remember that design work on expansions has been finished for a while before we see them. That means most expansions are a reaction to the metagame 2-3 waves before their announcement

Wait... so you’re saying it takes them over a year to design a wave and that it’s locked in from that point on? That Nym looked reasonable in last years meta?! There’s no way to continue play testing and clarify or FAQ something after the design process finished. That’s crazy.  

And it’s not like this is the first time it’s happened. With the JM5K you can kinda forgive them. But now they’ve made this mistake before and it’s obvious what the problems are. 

Its not like there’s some nuanced rule interaction that’s blindsided them... they overstatted, undercosted, crazy dialed another Scum ship with a killer ability.  

There’s no prior moment in which Nym looks reasonable.  In which wave would this past wave seem right? Triple K bombers (TLTs and bombs) was in early 2016 discussions. If game designers can’t react to a meta until 20 months later... that’s very much on them. No design cycle forgiveness or excuses seen reasonable here. Especially since moderately smaller games like Axis and Allies Miniatures have been able to easily react in 6 month cycles (turns out you can start model production before finalizing rules, and you can be printing base cards while still changing upgrades and costs). 

Edited by Lobokai

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6 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Well, first of all double mods definitely doesn't make you invulnerable.  When Soontir had Stealth Device and Focus/Evade and Palpatine and Autothrusters he was invulnerable.  Vader with Focus & Evade will bleed out a couple of points of damage.

Secondly it CAN go hand in hand with high agility, Imperials pay for high agility whether it does or not though.

Correction. He was almost invulnerable to single attacks. Focused fire brought him down consistently.

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This is simply and opinion and I'm making some business analysis leaps as a business owner myself that may or may not be correct:

The game was introduced and was wonderfully accepted. Mistakes have clearly been made as the game grew, but fixes were introduced afterwards (TIE Advanced, Defenders, T-65s, Phantoms, ordinance buffs, etc.) and I think the guys really cared about the game and the games balance. Sure the Firespray came out Imperial and was meh, but the team decides to make the Scum a faction. Money kept increasing and as it started really flowing onto their corporate bottom lines, it was decided to broaden the brand, game types grew at FFG, but the staff or salaries really didn't. The new faction was under performing save the IG2000s so the team quick-designed them a killer ship in the JMK5s and it went off like a rocket, making cash and taking names. They did try and reign her in with some hits to frequent mods she liked, but were unable to balance her. the latest (not really ancient) FAQ 4.3.2 was OK at the time, but overall one could argue, they actually caused more imbalance than balance between the factions. The rest of the promised "Bringing Balance to the Force" FAQ has been oddly delayed for almost a year, for unknown reasons, despite some leaks on Reddit.  As described by other posters above who are far more succinct than I, their design to sales time is so large, they seemingly cannot create a balanced game easily with design releases. In addition, they seemingly have a limited budget, very limited staff, and an apparent inability to focus on the product's performance with the users day-to-day. It seems rather than try and fix the imbalance, they just design and slowly produce and basically hope new releases shake things up in a positive or at least distracting way. As long as they keep making money, this trend will continue....why wouldn't it?

Are they biased? Sure, every man is about most everything.

Do they want an imbalanced game? No, that is a business model that will not survive and make them money. 

Will they do something about the current imbalance as they use to? It doesn't look like they will, the money keeps coming in. So why would they?

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14 minutes ago, 4fox100 said:

She also can take sabine. And with Adv. SLAM can end up dropping bombs in areas Nym cannot. Nym may be yhe better ship stat wise but is in no way a superior bomber. Imo they both are about even.

The way I see it, they're about even as bombers (both can drop bombs on a whole different level than anything else in the game, although by different means). However, I think Miranda is a strictly superior late game ship. She can run better due to SLAM and due to her ability (both regen and securing 4 dice range 1 and TLT shots) she can also take on way more stuff 1v1 than Nym can.

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23 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Wait... so you’re saying it takes them over a year to design a wave and that it’s locked in from that point on? That Nym looked reasonable in last years meta?! There’s no way to continue play testing and clarify or FAQ something after the design process finished. That’s crazy.  

And it’s not like this is the first time it’s happened. With the JM5K you can kinda forgive them. But now they’ve made this mistake before and it’s obvious what the problems are. 

Its not like there’s some nuanced rule interaction that’s blindsided them... they overstatted, undercosted, crazy dialed another Scum ship with a killer ability.  

There’s no prior moment in which Nym looks reasonable.  In which wave would this past wave seem right? Triple K bombers (TLTs and bombs) was in early 2016 discussions. If game designers can’t react to a meta until 20 months later... that’s very much on them. No design cycle forgiveness or excuses seen reasonable here.

I don't entirely disagree. It seems silly to have two waves already finished, just waiting to go to production. But we know that's the case, since the playtesters leak like a sieve.

 

As for the scurrg... Okay, let's break down the problems;

Statline/dial: Let's compare the Lok Revenant to the Ruthless Freelancer. The Revenant has an extra hull and shield, and the barrel roll action, but costs 3 points more. That's not quite enough to justify that price, so we get the EPT and we jump from a b-wing dial to a T-70 dial. Make sense.

Upgrades: Using the G1-A comparison again, we have crew, system, and illicit vs. Turret, missile, torpedo, 2 bombs, and a crew slot. The G1-A gets more versatile slots for modifiers, while the Scurrg gets to choose how it deals damage. Time has shown that the bomb and turret slots are very valuable, but 2.5 waves ago bombs were just for fun, and the Lok looked like a less efficient TLT platform than the Y-wing (which it kind of is, although bombs push it over the edge). As for the titles... eh, call it a wash. Maybe the Scurrg pushes the envelope a bit, but it didn't look crazy before the Jumpmaster and triple K-wing bombers.

Nym (The real issue here): This is undeniably ascrew up on the devs and playtesters part. I don't have anything to dispute here, although a friend who talks with some playtesters showed one of them a list with Experimental Interface Miranda, and the playtester admitted they'd never considered that, so you might be overestimating the playtesters here.

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They probably didn't consider Experimental Interface K-wing because currently its strictly worse than going Advanced Slam K-wing.

 

Same mod slot, costs more, does less.  

 

If the rumored FAQ nerf to Advanced Slam does arrive however then its a different discussion.

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49 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Wait... so you’re saying it takes them over a year to design a wave and that it’s locked in from that point on? That Nym looked reasonable in last years meta?! There’s no way to continue play testing and clarify or FAQ something after the design process finished. That’s crazy.  

And it’s not like this is the first time it’s happened. With the JM5K you can kinda forgive them. But now they’ve made this mistake before and it’s obvious what the problems are. 

Its not like there’s some nuanced rule interaction that’s blindsided them... they overstatted, undercosted, crazy dialed another Scum ship with a killer ability.  

There’s no prior moment in which Nym looks reasonable.  In which wave would this past wave seem right? Triple K bombers (TLTs and bombs) was in early 2016 discussions. If game designers can’t react to a meta until 20 months later... that’s very much on them. No design cycle forgiveness or excuses seen reasonable here. Especially since moderately smaller games like Axis and Allies Miniatures have been able to easily react in 6 month cycles (turns out you can start model production before finalizing rules, and you can be printing base cards while still changing upgrades and costs). 

I can't speak to x-wing, but we were playtesting Wave 2 of AGOT before the core set was in stores, and wave 1 was already locked down.  It's a loooong lead time.

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1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And regen.

REGEN.

I'd put their pilot abilities on par. Miranda will Regen 3-4 shields in a typical battle. Scum Nym will prevent 2-6 bomblet damage to himself in the course of a game. Pretty comparable. Rebel Nyms ability is worse, sure, but hey he's a two faction ship- so I'd say that counts for something too.

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45 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

I'd put their pilot abilities on par. Miranda will Regen 3-4 shields in a typical battle. Scum Nym will prevent 2-6 bomblet damage to himself in the course of a game. Pretty comparable. Rebel Nyms ability is worse, sure, but hey he's a two faction ship- so I'd say that counts for something too.

You're looking at it wrong IMO. Nym's ability (especially Scum Nym) works together with Havoc and Genius (Adv. Sensors too) to make Nym a better bombr. For Miranda, the same thing is done by SLAM+ Adv. SLAM+ Sabine. I don't consider Nym better at bombing than a Cluster Mines, Adv. SLAM and Sabine Miranda.

 

Then you have the turret. Nym is good with either TLL or ABT, but Miranda with her ability is just in a league of her own as a TLT carrier.

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3 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

You're looking at it wrong IMO. Nym's ability (especially Scum Nym) works together with Havoc and Genius (Adv. Sensors too) to make Nym a better bombr. For Miranda, the same thing is done by SLAM+ Adv. SLAM+ Sabine. I don't consider Nym better at bombing than a Cluster Mines, Adv. SLAM and Sabine Miranda.

Then you have the turret. Nym is good with either TLL or ABT, but Miranda with her ability is just in a league of her own as a TLT carrier.

I still stand by my assertion that Nym is better and has no downsides. 1pt more than Miranda gets him a whole slew of stuff (most importantly an EPT). That's broken IMO. But to be honest Miranda is too good as well, and needs a nerf.

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4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Yet, facts say otherwise :

http://meta-wing.com/pilots?

Top ship is Miranda, not one of the Nyms

Yeah, I get that, but Miranda's current position at the top of the pile isn't because she's undercosted and overstatted. She fits in a really good place in the meta. She also has the advantage of having been around longer and people being better with her. She's where she is because she fits in lists perfectly with lots of synergy.

I guess I'm not sure what we're arguing any more. My assertion is that Nym is grossly mis-designed, getting WAY too many stats, upgrades, slots, EPT, great dial, etc. for too few points. Is Miranda a better bomber? Sure in some situations, yes, probably most. Is she a grossly undercosted mega-poorly designed anal tumor of a ship like Nym? No.

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If playing favorites was a thing, I'd expect it to be much more based on having to sell scum's obscure ships (when compared to movie-famous rebel and imps), rather than on any dev's fond childhood memories.

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Alex Davy has never showed any favoritism toward a faction that I've seen.  (None of the designers showed favoritism toward a faction that I ever saw.)  I've had significant disagreements with how the developers have done things, but this accusation -- even couching it as "subconscious favoritism," which is meaningless because it can't be disproved -- is just silly.

The JM5K was a huge mistake.  Nym was a huge mistake.  Biggs turned out to be a huge mistake.  The TIE Phantom's original cloak/decloak mechanism was a huge mistake.  The new cloak/decloak mechanism is only slightly less bad.

Mistakes happen.  The conspiracy BS is so silly I'm actually a little ashamed of myself for responding.

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48 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

My assertion is that Nym is grossly mis-designed, getting WAY too many stats, upgrades, slots, EPT, great dial, etc. for too few points. Is Miranda a better bomber? Sure in some situations, yes, probably most. Is she a grossly undercosted mega-poorly designed anal tumor of a ship like Nym? No.

I give up. You've obviously made up your mind before staring this discussion and no amount of facts can change it.

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32 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I mean, trying to reason with a sock puppet named "Favouritism Flight Games" is never likely to work out, right?

I'M THE MAN BEHIND THE PUPPETS! THE EMPIRE WILL RISE AGAIN! THE DEATH STAR WAS AN INSIDE JOB! HYPERSPACE CHEM-TRAILS ARE TURNING ALL THE EWOKS GAY!

Star-Wars-Finger-Puppets-4-wm.jpg

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