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Marinealver

Does X-wing need a rotation?

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So Android Netrunner is currently going through a reboot and by reboot they are rotating out their core set and the 1st and 2nd cycles. They made a new core set that has replaced many cards on the most wanted list. So rotated core set and 1st 2 cycles. So could that apply to X-wing.

Rotate the core set (now you do need TFA, good bye Biggs) and the 1st two waves. Then reprint those two (to get a better X-wing that doesn't suck) and keep the big boxes (huge ship, Aces) as evergreen sets. Would that fix X-wing?

Personally I don't think so but given the recent event I think it is worth a discussion on what the game would be like if such a change were to occur.

Edited by Marinealver

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Rebel transport, Raider, Gozanti and Most Wanted all reprint the ships of the 1st wave, with Rebel and Imp aces reprint the small ships of Wave 2.  Most wanted and Heroed if the Resistence also handled the large ships from wave 2.  And let us not forget ‘Sabine’s TIE’. 

 

If you ware going to change the expansions from the first two waves and the original core, are you going to change the ships’ dials, stats, pilot abilities, upgrade slots?  How would these different ships mesh with the ‘big box’ and ‘aces’ ships?

 

I would LOVE a Falcon box that came with all the OT main crew cards, as well as an Obi Wan Crew.  I would also love a Heroes of Yavin or Scarif box that finally delivers on the mythical X-wing fix and reprints Biggs and Luke, making them more balanced, as well as giving Y-wings the EPTs they deserve!  I would also love a ‘Masters of The Darkside’ box set with TIE Advanced and Firespray that include the Raider content as well as fix the Firespray and give Imp Boba a better ability(or a mod like Maneuvering Fins, only backwards).  Oh and gives Stele pilot cards for all TIEs and GUNBOAT.

 

yeah, I’m not sure about an actual ‘rotation’ of older expansions for revised sets, the precedent has been boxes that contain content that helps lagging ships without reprinting and changing the previous material.  FFG doesn’t seem to like altering product when it’s been released.

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13 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Rebel transport, Raider, Gozanti and Most Wanted all reprint the ships of the 1st wave, with Rebel and Imp aces reprint the small ships of Wave 2.  Most wanted and Heroed if the Resistence also handled the large ships from wave 2.  And let us not forget ‘Sabine’s TIE’. 

 

If you ware going to change the expansions from the first two waves and the original core, are you going to change the ships’ dials, stats, pilot abilities, upgrade slots?  How would these different ships mesh with the ‘big box’ and ‘aces’ ships?

 

I would LOVE a Falcon box that came with all the OT main crew cards, as well as an Obi Wan Crew.  I would also love a Heroes of Yavin or Scarif box that finally delivers on the mythical X-wing fix and reprints Biggs and Luke, making them more balanced, as well as giving Y-wings the EPTs they deserve!  I would also love a ‘Masters of The Darkside’ box set with TIE Advanced and Firespray that include the Raider content as well as fix the Firespray and give Imp Boba a better ability(or a mod like Maneuvering Fins, only backwards).  Oh and gives Stele pilot cards for all TIEs and GUNBOAT.

 

yeah, I’m not sure about an actual ‘rotation’ of older expansions for revised sets, the precedent has been boxes that contain content that helps lagging ships without reprinting and changing the previous material.  FFG doesn’t seem to like altering product when it’s been released.

Indeed. I'd love to see this, but I'm not sure how to execute it.

I wouldn't mind the idea of 'pulling' a given wave to replace with new stuff (or new versions of old stuff) in a later wave, but (a) people are more hesitant to buy new miniatures than new cards, and (b) some of the older stuff is spattered through more recent waves. 

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9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It would be good for the game.

But honestly... I have 7 X-Wings by now. I‘m not sure how many more I want to buy, even if they are rereleased with competitive cards. Because all I need is the new pilot and upgrade, nothing else

i agree that i wouldn't be that keen on having to buy new models, but Attack Wing is giving cheaper card+cardboard packs a go as a way of re-balancing that game (and boy does it need it, but that's another topic). So how about this as an alternative way of doing rotations in x-wing.

- you rotate out only the pilot cards for a ship - this keeps it simple in terms of "what card came with that ship again?" moments.

- FFG then releases a new card pack for each FACTION's ships in the wave being rotated out, timed to arrive as the old cards get rotated out (no ships on a shelf you can't use) - so using wave 1 as an example, that would be a Rebel pack with X-wing and Y-wing pilot cards, and an Imperial pack with TIE Fighter and TIE Advanced pilot cards - ideally these card packs would also include "fix" cards for the relevant ships like Integrated Astromech, Bomb Loadout, TIE/x1, etc as well as a few new or errata upgrade cards to go with the revised pilot cards.

I know its not likely to happen, but I can dream can't I :) 

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You want to remove x-wings from x-wing?

and then sell me more, so I can use the ones I already have. Then FFGs imitation of GW will be complete. I have foreseen it!

 

i like the idea of randomly removing a couple of waves from the competetive scene every quarter just to change things up a bit.

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6 minutes ago, Surak said:

i agree that i wouldn't be that keen on having to buy new models, but Attack Wing is giving cheaper card+cardboard packs a go as a way of re-balancing that game (and boy does it need it, but that's another topic). So how about this as an alternative way of doing rotations in x-wing.

- you rotate out only the pilot cards for a ship - this keeps it simple in terms of "what card came with that ship again?" moments.

- FFG then releases a new card pack for each FACTION's ships in the wave being rotated out, timed to arrive as the old cards get rotated out (no ships on a shelf you can't use) - so using wave 1 as an example, that would be a Rebel pack with X-wing and Y-wing pilot cards, and an Imperial pack with TIE Fighter and TIE Advanced pilot cards - ideally these card packs would also include "fix" cards for the relevant ships like Integrated Astromech, Bomb Loadout, TIE/x1, etc as well as a few new or errata upgrade cards to go with the revised pilot cards.

I know its not likely to happen, but I can dream can't I :) 

It would be nice.  That way you can throw in fixes (like TIE/x1 titles), reworked old pilots or new pilots for each ship.

It does give you the issue that you can't then change the dial, which is the issue for some ships, but that issue is dealable with.

The thing is, it's easy to do a one-time 'fix'. An aces pack is essentially just that, or a plastic-free campaign box for Scarif (a la Correllian Conflict). 

'Rotation' is a fundamental shift in the long-term-plan for the game, such that any pilot card you buy has a defined life expectency before it'll be replaced with an updated version. 

This is not specifically a problem, but at the moment the game is not structured for this in various ways; most of the LCGs with this planned in have, for example, clearly obvious 'expansion cycle' icons on the card face.

 

 

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A rotation doesn't address any of the problems with the game. The new stuff is what is causingvthe balance isssues, not the old stuff. Rotating also only really works for card games that have 100's of cards every year, whereas X-wing has a much lower number of new cards yearly.

All a rotation would do is cause a fewer iconic ships to hit the table and potentially conefuse someone who showed up to a tournament without knowing about it.

In short, a rotation is a thing that TCG's do to increase sales and change power levels. It would do nothing but make balance worse and irritate people for X-wing.

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Either rotation or "Hall of Fame" I think would really help. I keep hearing people ask about 2.0, but i think rotation makes more sense from a business and gaming perspective. Keeps people buying new expansions, and honestly keeps the game fresh indefinitely. The only issue is you will end up with tons of ties and x-wings etc. But you can always sell extra models, use them for conversions, donate them to after school programs, or put them on display. 

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52 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

A rotation doesn't address any of the problems with the game. The new stuff is what is causingvthe balance isssues, not the old stuff. Rotating also only really works for card games that have 100's of cards every year, whereas X-wing has a much lower number of new cards yearly.

All a rotation would do is cause a fewer iconic ships to hit the table and potentially conefuse someone who showed up to a tournament without knowing about it.

In short, a rotation is a thing that TCG's do to increase sales and change power levels. It would do nothing but make balance worse and irritate people for X-wing.

That's not entirely true. 

What makes Nym into the monster he is is Advanced sensors - Wave 3

Biggs - original core set 

VI - wave 2 

 

Taking just those cards out of the game changes the meta immensely. Personally, I want a living FAQ but that is apparently not possible with the license. So I would settle for rotation to be clear.

 

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I believe X-wing has several license restrictions and other unrelated problems that prevent most of the usually suggested solutions from being implemented:

  • Miniature game license. That means that all products need to include paraphernalia used in and mostly in miniature games like miniatures, special dice, special plastic components, mats, bases and pegs, etc.
    This prevents FFG from selling cardboard only packs (cards and tokens), since it probably interferes with the tabletop license and the card game license.
    The amount of cards included in the pack seem to follow a proportional amount to the price tag of the pack, that I guess allows the game to use cards while preventing it from becoming a card game.
    If this is true, then if they wanted to release a 100 card pack, it would need to come with some plastic component, and have a price tag that probably few people wouldn't find outrageous. Most likely, the license has a limitation to the upper amount of cards that can be packed with any given expansion.
  • Living costs and text in the shape of a running site, or mobile app are forbidden. It seems those count as online products and it interferes with online or mobile gaming licenses. I think I read from some LFL employee in Twitter that the only "online" thing they are allowed to distribute now and then are "Free PDFs" that must be revised by LFL. (This affects also the roleplaying games, and games like Imperial Assault)
  • Forcing the playerbase to buy new editions of the ships they already have will upset many. Aces packs is close to that, but they at least offer repaints. 
  • New versions of the standalone ship packs can only push them up to reach the current power creep, instead of reducing the existing power creep. You cannot convince anyone to buy the Jumpmaster 5000 Second Edition where Dengar has worse ability, the ship has worse upgrade bar and dial, and it comes with worse upgrade cards. However, this is what the game actually would need and the shortest way to fix the unbalance, rather than pushing everything, that has been fine before, up to the same broken level. Rotating the First Edition out, and forcing them to buy the second edition goes back to the previous point.
  • Having a listing with "Update Tournament Squad Point Costs", where ships and upgrades are costed differently than indicated on the printed card, is not only undesirable because you end having printed material that contradicts what it is actually being used. Also, this would require some support to help people check that they are effectively building a 100 point squadron with the most up-to-date official squad point cost lists. You no longer can just add the printed numbers and validate it. Now you need to cross reference it with an online document. For a tournament organizer this could be troublesome and time consuming. Even more if someone comes with localized versions of their cards, and the card names no longer match.
    Because of the second point, FFG cannot have an official squadron builder because that would count as online product and falls outside their license.

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54 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm a big fan of all the benefits that rotation brings to a game.  But there's definitely issues in implementing it in X-Wing.

It needs to be done with exceptions. Never rotate movie ships (make an exception for Biggs, though), don't rotate fix upgrades that weren't over the top. Keep some basic upgrades of low power so slots don't become unfillable.

This notably can't fix the PWT-arcdodger imbalance, so it would be apropriate to go together with a nerf towards those, as Autothrusters are such a problematic upgrade they'd have to be removed.

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different game; doesn't help

x-wing could use a ban list perhaps, and definitely more willingness to errata major problems instead of releasing fixes in expacs

of course these things take time, so who knows if we're getting another wave of deadeye/x7/palp/manny/zuckuss nerfs and heavy scyk buff?

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3 hours ago, Marinealver said:

So Android Netrunner is currently going through a reboot and by reboot they are rotating out their core set and the 1st and 2nd cycles. They made a new core set that has replaced many cards on the most wanted list. So rotated core set and 1st 2 cycles. So could that apply to X-wing.

Rotate the core set (now you do need TFA, good bye Biggs) and the 1st two waves. Then reprint those tow (to get a better X-wing that doesn't suck) and keep the big boxes (huge ship, Aces) as evergreen sets. Would that fix X-wing?

Personally I don't think so but given the recent event I think it is worth a discussion on what the game would be like if such a change were to occur.

my brother and i have a rule with this game and magic: if you win 3 times in a row with a list or deck, you cant play it anymore until powercreep catches up.

its really good because you still get to win and enjoy it, but your opponent knows youll change it up and nothing becomes stagnant. this game is about diversity, so at least for casual play it really helps to play this way.

hate triple jumps? 3 games max and theyre gone. hate dengarym? 3 games

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1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

I believe X-wing has several license restrictions and other unrelated problems that prevent most of the usually suggested solutions from being implemented:

  • Miniature game license. That means that all products need to include paraphernalia used in and mostly in miniature games like miniatures, special dice, special plastic components, mats, bases and pegs, etc.
    This prevents FFG from selling cardboard only packs (cards and tokens), since it probably interferes with the tabletop license and the card game license.
    The amount of cards included in the pack seem to follow a proportional amount to the price tag of the pack, that I guess allows the game to use cards while preventing it from becoming a card game.
    If this is true, then if they wanted to release a 100 card pack, it would need to come with some plastic component, and have a price tag that probably few people wouldn't find outrageous. Most likely, the license has a limitation to the upper amount of cards that can be packed with any given expansion.
  • Living costs and text in the shape of a running site, or mobile app are forbidden. It seems those count as online products and it interferes with online or mobile gaming licenses. I think I read from some LFL employee in Twitter that the only "online" thing they are allowed to distribute now and then are "Free PDFs" that must be revised by LFL. (This affects also the roleplaying games, and games like Imperial Assault)
  • Forcing the playerbase to buy new editions of the ships they already have will upset many. Aces packs is close to that, but they at least offer repaints. 
  • New versions of the standalone ship packs can only push them up to reach the current power creep, instead of reducing the existing power creep. You cannot convince anyone to buy the Jumpmaster 5000 Second Edition where Dengar has worse ability, the ship has worse upgrade bar and dial, and it comes with worse upgrade cards. However, this is what the game actually would need and the shortest way to fix the unbalance, rather than pushing everything, that has been fine before, up to the same broken level. Rotating the First Edition out, and forcing them to buy the second edition goes back to the previous point.
  • Having a listing with "Update Tournament Squad Point Costs", where ships and upgrades are costed differently than indicated on the printed card, is not only undesirable because you end having printed material that contradicts what it is actually being used. Also, this would require some support to help people check that they are effectively building a 100 point squadron with the most up-to-date official squad point cost lists. You no longer can just add the printed numbers and validate it. Now you need to cross reference it with an online document. For a tournament organizer this could be troublesome and time consuming. Even more if someone comes with localized versions of their cards, and the card names no longer match.
    Because of the second point, FFG cannot have an official squadron builder because that would count as online product and falls outside their license.

i think youre about most everything except "online product". by your definition the errata in the FAQ would be breach of contract. my guess is theres one stubborn bastard who refuses to errata squad point values and is in a position of power on FFGs X-wing team

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1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

I believe X-wing has several license restrictions and other unrelated problems that prevent most of the usually suggested solutions from being implemented:

  • Miniature game license. That means that all products need to include paraphernalia used in and mostly in miniature games like miniatures, special dice, special plastic components, mats, bases and pegs, etc.
    This prevents FFG from selling cardboard only packs (cards and tokens), since it probably interferes with the tabletop license and the card game license.
    The amount of cards included in the pack seem to follow a proportional amount to the price tag of the pack, that I guess allows the game to use cards while preventing it from becoming a card game.
    If this is true, then if they wanted to release a 100 card pack, it would need to come with some plastic component, and have a price tag that probably few people wouldn't find outrageous. Most likely, the license has a limitation to the upper amount of cards that can be packed with any given expansion.

But apart from computer/mobile/online stuff they have all of these licenses.

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9 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

What about Chardaan refit, Integrated Astromech, B-wing E2, TIE mk2, and Lightweight Frame, though? 

Reprint those or similar cards every 7 waves or so.

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