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Crimsonwarlock

Hate for net listing???

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It also needs to be highlighted that up until a couple weeks ago, NA and most of Europe was in the never ending season. People were constantly play competitive stuff, because there were constantly competitive events. So after nationals, until about two days ago I had not even thought about what new hotness to start practicing.  I think that if we can settle into this new schedule, AND GET SOME GODDAMN REGIONAL DATES, it will really help curb everyone constantly prepping for the circuit. 

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4 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

I think people just like to have a chance at winning with a list they find fun to play.

One of the most irritating things in my local scene (that I have sucked up and just deal with) is having to tailor any list I bring to deal with the latest hyper-efficiency and general NPE type stuff that I might encounter so that my game isn't over before it begins.  It isn't FUN to line up against something that you can't realistically counter-play.  Spending 40 minutes watching your list be inevitably ground down with nothing you can do about it just isn't an enjoyable experience.  And unfortunately, that can occur with a really, really wide variety of lists against things like Nym + wingman, FSR2.0, etc.

People might be well within their rights to bring the latest powerlist, but it absolutely turns people away from playing that might otherwise attend.

What's the context, though?  Is it a casual game?  If so, is it not appropriate, or are other players not receptive to being asked to play something different?  Is it a tournament?  Are the power players the outliers or are you the outlier?  

I wonder if there or local scenes where there are 1-2 power players and they bemoan that everyone else in their area is casual and they can't find a good, competitive game.

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32 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I think if someone doesn't want to face meta lists, just don't go to tournaments.  If, in a local area, that it's truly just 1-2 people who bring top meta lists and everyone else stops showing up, then they won't have a tournament to dominate and will either stop showing up for them or catch the hint that people are tired of facing those type of lists.  What more can you really do?


I think this is a good point, and probably where the contention of "folks showing up with meta cheese" lies.

I remember earlier in the year when discussing Store Champs, that one of the folks on this forum said that their store declined to have a SC this season. I'm paraphrasing a bit here from memory, but the owner of the shop said he was tired of seeing "mercenaries show up and steal the plaque from his shop's regulars." I know I have read of many people just on this forum and Reddit that attended multiple SC's in the same season, far more than someone could be considered a "regular" at*. I can understand the frustration of having a "store championship" won by people who don't even play at your store, but I also understand that "its legal"* and because its part of the FFG Organized Play, its not an option to alter the rules.

Having someone roll up into your SC with a top meta list when your regular players are there with their T1.5 or T2 stuff is very disheartening, and likely will drive people from attending or even holding (like the before mentioned store) such events, which is a loss for their local X-Wing Community.

I mean, it would be like the San Francisco Giants show up for their National League tourney, then decide to show up for the American League tourney as well because there is nothing in the rules preventing them from playing multiple tournaments in a year*. Then they also show up for the Pacific Coast League, the Eastern League, and South Atlantic League, who all get roflstomped and are left wondering who the **** those guys were and why did they show up to "steal" the trophy

 

*really? you "regularly" play at six different stores up to 1 hour driving distance away?

* we've also established that something can be legal, but not be moral, if you remember

*its a metaphor, yes I know pro baseball doesn't actually allow this

Edited by kris40k

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3 minutes ago, Timathius said:

It also needs to be highlighted that up until a couple weeks ago, NA and most of Europe was in the never ending season. People were constantly play competitive stuff, because there were constantly competitive events. So after nationals, until about two days ago I had not even thought about what new hotness to start practicing.  I think that if we can settle into this new schedule, AND GET SOME GODDAMN REGIONAL DATES, it will really help curb everyone constantly prepping for the circuit. 

I hope so, but I think the competitive element has now got so ingrained that any 'downtime' is just going to be used to begin early practicing with whatever they think is going to be the strongest thing whenever a proper tournament season rolls around.  It's been too long since they knew anything else.

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4 minutes ago, kris40k said:

I think this is a good point, and probably where the contention of "folks showing up with meta cheese" lies.

I remember earlier in the year when discussing Store Champs, that one of the folks on this forum said that their store declined to have a SC this season. I'm paraphrasing a bit here from memory, but the owner of the shop said he was tired of seeing "mercenaries show up and steal the plaque from his shop's regulars." I know I have read of many people just on this forum and Reddit that attended multiple SC's in the same season, far more than someone could be considered a "regular" at*. I can understand the frustration of having a "store championship" won by people who don't even play at your store, but I also understand that "its legal"* and because its part of the FFG Organized Play, its not an option to alter the rules.

Having someone roll up into your SC with a top meta list when your regular players are there with their T1.5 or T2 stuff is very disheartening, and likely will drive people from attending or even holding (like the before mentioned store) such events, which is a loss for their local X-Wing Community.

I mean, it would be like the San Francisco Giants show up for their National League tourney, then decide to show up for the American League tourney as well because there is nothing in the rules preventing them from playing multiple tournaments in a year*. Then they also show up for the Pacific Coast League, the Eastern League, and South Atlantic League, who all get roflstomped and are left wondering who the **** those guys were and why did they show up to "steal" the trophy

*really? you "regularly" play at six different stores up to 1 hour driving distance away?

* we've also established that something can be legal, but not be moral, if you remember

*its a metaphor, yes I know pro baseball doesn't actually allow this

Hmm...yeah, I get that.  Having a store championship won by someone you've never seen at your store would be pretty disheartening.  

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Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

I hope so, but I think the competitive element has now got so ingrained that any 'downtime' is just going to be used to begin early practicing with whatever they think is going to be the strongest thing whenever a proper tournament season rolls around.  It's been too long since they knew anything else.

I mean, I can only speak for myself and a few other competitive players in the US. Most are taking a break from competitive. For some that means no X-Wing at all (L5R is a good distraction for them) and for some that means they are more inclined to play true casual matches. A small sample size but encouraging for this type of discourse.

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1 minute ago, gennataos said:

What's the context, though?  Is it a casual game?  If so, is it not appropriate, or are other players not receptive to being asked to play something different?  Is it a tournament?  Are the power players the outliers or are you the outlier?  

I wonder if there or local scenes where there are 1-2 power players and they bemoan that everyone else in their area is casual and they can't find a good, competitive game.

I think it would slot into casual tournament.  Small prizes on the line, but nothing crazy.  Not a huge number of players

Definitely some meta-focused individuals.  Haven't seen one of them in a couple of months, but I doubt it was due to a lack of sturdy competition.  For a while there was a pretty steady parade of Dengar/Fenn/whatever.  There was a brief shining moment pre-Nym where I had a solid list that dealt excellently with the meta monsters while still being able to handle other lists, but Whisper doesn't like PS10 auto-damage.

I'm a middling performer, I've won a couple of nights but usually wind up middle of the pack.  Current set of players fly primarily tier-2 stuff and it's been much more fun, although the Palp+Kylo RAC players are warping my list-building again.

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44 minutes ago, kris40k said:


I think this is a good point, and probably where the contention of "folks showing up with meta cheese" lies.

I remember earlier in the year when discussing Store Champs, that one of the folks on this forum said that their store declined to have a SC this season. I'm paraphrasing a bit here from memory, but the owner of the shop said he was tired of seeing "mercenaries show up and steal the plaque from his shop's regulars." I know I have read of many people just on this forum and Reddit that attended multiple SC's in the same season, far more than someone could be considered a "regular" at*. I can understand the frustration of having a "store championship" won by people who don't even play at your store, but I also understand that "its legal"* and because its part of the FFG Organized Play, its not an option to alter the rules.

There was a tiny little local store maybe an hour or so drive from me that this happened to.  I know a guy from the town and he knows that there's basically nobody there who really plays the game properly and takes it seriously (in the height of the K-Wing drought he went and bought 4 K-Wings from the store there, because their players weren't clued up enough to the game to have bought them).

That store thought "hey, you know what would be cool?  How about we host a store championship for the guys, give them some cool prizes!".

Cue all the hardcore players from a 100-mile radius bombing in for what they saw as a weak Store Championship that was an easy way to bag some swag and a regionals bye.  Local players just got hammered for their troubles and I don't think the store is looking to have any involvement with FFG OP in future.  I saw the top 4 photo from that store championship - not one of the guys in it had ever been to the store before (or even heard of the store until a few days before) and I imagine they'll never go there again.

Edited by Stay On The Leader

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6 minutes ago, kris40k said:


I think this is a good point, and probably where the contention of "folks showing up with meta cheese" lies.

I remember earlier in the year when discussing Store Champs, that one of the folks on this forum said that their store declined to have a SC this season. I'm paraphrasing a bit here from memory, but the owner of the shop said he was tired of seeing "mercenaries show up and steal the plaque from his shop's regulars." I know I have read of many people just on this forum and Reddit that attended multiple SC's in the same season, far more than someone could be considered a "regular" at*. I can understand the frustration of having a "store championship" won by people who don't even play at your store, but I also understand that "its legal"* and because its part of the FFG Organized Play, its not an option to alter the rules.

Having someone roll up into your SC with a top meta list when your regular players are there with their T1.5 or T2 stuff is very disheartening, and likely will drive people from attending or even holding (like the before mentioned store) such events, which is a loss for their local X-Wing Community.

I mean, it would be like the San Francisco Giants show up for their National League tourney, then decide to show up for the American League tourney as well because there is nothing in the rules preventing them from playing multiple tournaments in a year*. Then they also show up for the Pacific Coast League, the Eastern League, and South Atlantic League, who all get roflstomped and are left wondering who the **** those guys were and why did they show up to "steal" the trophy

 

*really? you "regularly" play at six different stores up to 1 hour driving distance away?

* we've also established that something can be legal, but not be moral, if you remember

*its a metaphor, yes I know pro baseball doesn't actually allow this

I definitely see your point, but I also think that some of that is on the regulars. To use a sports metaphor, a coach will field squads in the preseason that he wants to try out. But as soon as the season starts in earnest, its game time and they put their best foot forward. The same I think applies here. Regulars should be trying to defend their store's honor and do their best to be competitive once it hits that level. 

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20 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

 

People might be well within their rights to bring the latest powerlist, but it absolutely turns people away from playing that might otherwise attend.

This is so important. I always have 2 lists on me, one fun + one competitive so I can adjust to my opponent. Its vital that we keep welcoming new players into the scene and make sure that they're having fun. 

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3 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

I think it would slot into casual tournament.  Small prizes on the line, but nothing crazy.  Not a huge number of players

Definitely some meta-focused individuals.  Haven't seen one of them in a couple of months, but I doubt it was due to a lack of sturdy competition.  For a while there was a pretty steady parade of Dengar/Fenn/whatever.  There was a brief shining moment pre-Nym where I had a solid list that dealt excellently with the meta monsters while still being able to handle other lists, but Whisper doesn't like PS10 auto-damage.

I'm a middling performer, I've won a couple of nights but usually wind up middle of the pack.  Current set of players fly primarily tier-2 stuff and it's been much more fun, although the Palp+Kylo RAC players are warping my list-building again.

I guess it just gets to be a really slippery slope and I unmanageable in a manner which makes everyone happy.  Like, I legitimately love to fly Miranda, I think she's a lot of fun to fly.  Unsurprisingly, a lot of people hate to face Miranda.  What do I do?  Do I stop flying a ship I love?  On the other side, I loathe Kylo crew, I think there's nothing interesting about playing against him.  People love their RAC/(insert ace) lists, though...what do they do?

This last weekend, I played a couple small kit tournaments with triple wookies.  I debated playing the second tournament with them or not, because I dominated the first one and knew I'd have a good shot to dominate the second one (spoiler: I didn't), and knew people would rather I didn't.  But I had just bought the third Auzituck to run those type of lists, so I wanted to get use out of them...plus it's fun to fly!  

Despite what I posted earlier over the weekend, I've never purposefully played a list to ruin someones day.  I have, however, purposefully played a list because I knew what some of the attendees would bring and I knew that I could hard counter them.  Is that bad sportsmanship or a smart meta call?

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7 minutes ago, Bonza said:

This is so important. I always have 2 lists on me, one fun + one competitive so I can adjust to my opponent. Its vital that we keep welcoming new players into the scene and make sure that they're having fun. 

In a casual game night, ****...I think I usually have about a dozen lists ready to go of varying degrees on the funsie/competitive scale.

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On the note of 'competitive' players travelling to smaller local stores...

I, as a mostly local only player, love it.  I get an opportunity to play the upper tier players and don't have to travel to do it.  Dont get me wrong, I want to do well and have a chance of winning... but mostly I am there to play and appreciate the opportunity to play new and more challenging opponents.  

Edited by Cr0aker

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3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I guess it just gets to be a really slippery slope and I unmanageable in a manner which makes everyone happy.  Like, I legitimately love to fly Miranda, I think she's a lot of fun to fly.  Unsurprisingly, a lot of people hate to face Miranda.  What do I do?  Do I stop flying a ship I love?  On the other side, I loathe Kylo crew, I think there's nothing interesting about playing against him.  People love their RAC/(insert ace) lists, though...what do they do?

This last weekend, I played a couple small kit tournaments with triple wookies.  I debated playing the second tournament with them or not, because I dominated the first one and knew I'd have a good shot to dominate the second one (spoiler: I didn't), and knew people would rather I didn't.  But I had just bought the third Auzituck to run those type of lists, so I wanted to get use out of them...plus it's fun to fly!  

Despite what I posted earlier over the weekend, I've never purposefully played a list to ruin someones day.  I have, however, purposefully played a list because I knew what some of the attendees would bring and I knew that I could hard counter them.  Is that bad sportsmanship or a smart meta call?

Miranda on her own is fine, really.  She doesn't shut down any style of play in and of herself.  RAC+Ace is fine, too, but Palp+Kylo RAC is going to cause issues for players that aren't flying lists built to deal with it.

If people are there to win first (big tournament, etc.) then by all means go all out.  If people are there for fun first, then you should strongly consider running your ship/archetype of preference in a list that isn't going to blatantly ruin anybody's day.  Most lists that are meta-counters are vulnerable to large swathes of the rest of the field, so you're probably fine there.

Be smart, don't be a ****, and if you do something dickish don't be surprised if it pushes people away.  Pretty straight-forward.

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4 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Miranda on her own is fine, really.  She doesn't shut down any style of play in and of herself.  RAC+Ace is fine, too, but Palp+Kylo RAC is going to cause issues for players that aren't flying lists built to deal with it.

But isn't that weird?  Isn't it weird that, and I don't mean this in a dickish way, you're casting judgment on the context in which Miranda or RAC+Ace is okay for a tournament?

I don't think it can be overstated that the lens through which I see this entire discussion is in a tournament of any size.

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17 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I guess it just gets to be a really slippery slope and I unmanageable in a manner which makes everyone happy.  Like, I legitimately love to fly Miranda, I think she's a lot of fun to fly.  Unsurprisingly, a lot of people hate to face Miranda.  What do I do?  Do I stop flying a ship I love?  On the other side, I loathe Kylo crew, I think there's nothing interesting about playing against him.  People love their RAC/(insert ace) lists, though...what do they do?

This last weekend, I played a couple small kit tournaments with triple wookies.  I debated playing the second tournament with them or not, because I dominated the first one and knew I'd have a good shot to dominate the second one (spoiler: I didn't), and knew people would rather I didn't.  But I had just bought the third Auzituck to run those type of lists, so I wanted to get use out of them...plus it's fun to fly!  

Despite what I posted earlier over the weekend, I've never purposefully played a list to ruin someones day.  I have, however, purposefully played a list because I knew what some of the attendees would bring and I knew that I could hard counter them.  Is that bad sportsmanship or a smart meta call?

By the time it's in the hands of the players it's very difficult to solve.  It's at FFG's door that the game has been created where such imbalances and 'NPE' situations not just exist but are increasingly commonplace.

Playing Miranda and Nym IS fun.  It's at the doors of the designers and the playtesters that it's such an un-fun experience to play against, though.  Same goes for Kylo Ren, and for a good dozen other things that probably needed somebody to care as much about what it was like to play against as they did what it was like to play with.

As a player all you can do, if you care enough about the experience of your opponents to do so, is to pull your punches.  Play Miranda but maybe load hre a little differently, a little weaker.  Or play Miranda but alongside something you know is a weaker wingman.

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On 9/25/2017 at 11:25 AM, PastrySandwich said:

I don't have any hate for  a netlister I just don't understand it.  Building a list is like half the fun of the game. Its deck building and that's great.

But here's the thing... Not everyone feels the same way.  Not everyone is good at deck building, or find it enjoyable.

So should those people simply never play the game?  Is it fair to tell someone that just because they lack in the list building skillset, that they should either play only garbage lists and lose every game, or perhaps not bother playing at all?

I know that's not what you said, but it is something you don't seem to take into account, that not everyone who plays a game like this is good at list building, and that's why they use netlists.  Because they either don't like it or aren't good at it.

The problem with the guy who brings in nothing but the top end meta to casual game night isn't that he netlisted, it's a much deeper issue with his attitude about playing games with other people.

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36 minutes ago, Timathius said:

I definitely see your point, but I also think that some of that is on the regulars. To use a sports metaphor, a coach will field squads in the preseason that he wants to try out. But as soon as the season starts in earnest, its game time and they put their best foot forward. The same I think applies here. Regulars should be trying to defend their store's honor and do their best to be competitive once it hits that level. 

I get that, but lets be honest. If a two Major league capable teams rolled up into a Minor League conference tournament, it would be seriously doubtful that anything is going to stop those two from stomping the rest of the field and one of them is walking away with the trophy. That's what it can seem like if someone who is playing like they are attempting to win worlds or nationals shows up to a shop champ where the regulars are used to "playing for fun".

I honestly don't have a solution for this, other than the same that the previously mentioned store owner did, which is "get out of FFG OP tournaments" If you aren't running an official one with a regional buy, its unlikely that you will have as much interest from "mercs" showing up to "ruin" things. Maybe just get a quarterly kit, local word-of-mouth invites, and have a local trophy store make a store champ trophy to use. I dunno.  It seems counterproductive to be working out how to get away from working with FFG's Organized Play and go all insular, but that may be required to keep things on a more even level for a specific store's level of play.

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16 minutes ago, gennataos said:

But isn't that weird?  Isn't it weird that, and I don't mean this in a dickish way, you're casting judgment on the context in which Miranda or RAC+Ace is okay for a tournament?

I don't think it can be overstated that the lens through which I see this entire discussion is in a tournament of any size.

I'm not, though?

I'm making it clear that people are well within their rights to bring what they want, but lists that make it essentially impossible for someone else's list to have any chance at winning are going to drive people away.  There's nothing ambiguous about the distinctions I drew.

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Thing is with the 'mercs showing up to steal tournaments' thing: that's not a function of netlisting.  It's a function of 'mercs' for want of a better word.

If a national champion shows up to a 20 player GNK tournament, he'll probably win it with any semi-competitive list.  It doesn't matter that he netlists or doesn't (heck, he might have designed that netlist for all you know), it matters that he's a top tier player playing against a group of... not top tier players.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Thing is with the 'mercs showing up to steal tournaments' thing: that's not a function of netlisting.  It's a function of 'mercs' for want of a better word.

If a national champion shows up to a 20 player GNK tournament, he'll probably win it with any semi-competitive list.  It doesn't matter that he netlists or doesn't (heck, he might have designed that netlist for all you know), it matters that he's a top tier player playing against a group of... not top tier players.

This is a great point!  Most people would rather get out-played than out-listed, though.  The top player can get taken down by a misjudgment or mistake if he's running a list on par with everyone else's.

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2 minutes ago, kris40k said:

It seems counterproductive to be working out how to get away from working with FFG's Organized Play and go all insular, but that may be required to keep things on a more even level for a specific store's level of play.

But why not do both?

I live near the Twin Cities, the home of FFG, and we have a ton of great players in the area.  It's fairly common for them to show up at smaller Store Championships even though they don't play there normally.  People have tried to argue that the Store Championship is supposed to be for local players, but that's never really been true.

But we also have had other tournaments some with alternate rule sets and those are brought up on the facebook page for that store or location and it's normally just the locals who show up for it.  In those cases I've never really seen many people bring out the meta cheese.

I know that at my LGS he makes a fair amount of money when he hosts a store championship, so it's really just hurting yourself if you don't host one.  Sure the thing may not be won by a local person, and it may be the store is ripe with meta cheese... But it's just one event and if you can't compete against the people who show up from out of town with that kind of list, it's not like you'll be doing well at Regionals, so does it really matter how you do at the SC?  I mean if you want to win, and you know people will be showing up with the latest and greatest then bring something you know can match up with that.  Or just wait until the next non-FFG event takes place.

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So, here's an example... here's my Friday evening.

I go to the store.  There's one other X-Wing player, I know him and he's a nice guy, still pretty new but he's trying to step up and get good.  He's only got one squad with him, and it's Miranda/Nym with TLTs and bombs up the wazoo.  I've brought two lists, the one I want to play (Kylo/Vader/Sabacc) and some Ion Cannon Brobots just for a change of pace.  If I play the Ion Brobots I'm going to rip him a new one, so instead we play three games with his Miranda/Nym against my Imperials. 

I manage to win all three games (one of them by the skin of my teeth) because he's pretty bad with these ships.  Along the way I try to help him learn how to fly them, I remind him when to drop bombs and why, help him figure out which targets to attack, try to explain some of the strategies he'll need to play the list well.

So I won 3-0, but nothing was on the line so who cares about the scoreline.  Did I have fun (the objective of going along to play X-Wing)?  No, because he was using infinite bombs with Sabine, and two TLTs one with Accuracy Corrector.

So should I have refused to play against him?  Well we're the only guys at the store so we'd have just both gone home without playing at all.

So should he played a different list?  Well maybe but he's trying to learn the game and win some games, so if he plays a bad list badly what does that benefit him?  He may as well play a good list badly.  At least I was able to help him out a bit, teach him how to use his squad better.

But in the end it's not a satisfying experience... we played some games, we chatted, we went home... but I could have done something else with my time and enjoyed it more.  And whose 'fault' is that, if it's not mine or his?  It's the designer's fault.  Don't make mechanics and cards and ships that are AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL to play against.  Don't turn out things that make the game feel like I'm chewing flavourless cardboard against ships that don't care which direction they're facing, don't care whether they're played well or not, don't care if I've flown well or not and just roll red dice after red dice and wait to see if it's enough to win.

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6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Thing is with the 'mercs showing up to steal tournaments' thing: that's not a function of netlisting.  It's a function of 'mercs' for want of a better word.

If a national champion shows up to a 20 player GNK tournament, he'll probably win it with any semi-competitive list.  It doesn't matter that he netlists or doesn't (heck, he might have designed that netlist for all you know), it matters that he's a top tier player playing against a group of... not top tier players.

Kinda, but around me the competitive player knows he has to deal with all the other competitive players who will also be turning up to the same small tournament trying to scalp the little guys.

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1 minute ago, RampancyTW said:

Most people would rather get out-played than out-listed, though.

First off, you don't get to speak for most people, because you don't know most people.

And most of the people I know, don't actually care about it one way or the other.  We all play to win, and having a better list is part of how you win.

The top player is going to win because they're very good at playing the game, and don't make many mistakes, but they're also very good at list building and are going to bring the best list they can, because a good list will make a minor mistake a lot less costly.

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