Jump to content
Crimsonwarlock

Hate for net listing???

Recommended Posts

Just now, kris40k said:

The fact that we are discussing this convention on an open forum with more than one person on that side proves otherwise.

So speaking aobut UFO and little green men on forum proves that they exist? Okeeeeey....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Embir82 said:

So speaking aobut UFO and little green men on forum proves that they exist? Okeeeeey....

We are talking about the existence of a social convention, which simply requires rules of established social conduct by a community, not extra-terrestrials. Don't try to go all argumentum ad absurdum, here. Its out of place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, kris40k said:

We are talking about the existence of a social convention, which simply requires rules of established social conduct by a community, not extra-terrestrials. Don't try to go all argumentum ad absurdum, here. Its out of place.

You just proved my point.
There are no established social conduct of community regarding netlisting. Quite the contrary - netlists are the most common types of lists I encountered playing during tournaments. This fact alone proves that in fact acceptance of netlisting is more socially acceptable than prohibiting it.
Also, apart from this argument attempts to pull netlisting into some kind of socially unacceptable behaviour from "grey area" makes no sense. Because making netlists is totally fine, and totally acceptable by the rules - there are no ambiguities here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Keeping the game fun for both sides - and you know how do you achieve this thing? By being cultural, polite and by playing by the rules, by not cheating, not insulting and definietly not bragging after defeating your opponent. In short - by being decent human being. This is how you make game fun. And this are well established unwritten rules. Social convention about netlists exists only in your head.

They exist for numerous, numerous people. Judging by lListJuggler, the people who like to play netlists are far outnumbered by those who don't.

6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Prioritize you winning or you being creative.  Where is the bar on what people can bring?  Why are you the arbiter of what people can and cannot bring? 

You may not be like this in person, but if you were whining like this in person, I would purposefully bring the most dreadful bull I could find just to spite you.  There's no unspoke rule about playing in a tournament.  Sheesh.

In casual play there is the clear course of action - talking beforehand with your opponent. Problem solved. If you're bringing a netlist against a casual list without consulting your opponent, shame on you.

In regional and above event, netlisting is expected and accepted.

It's only in casual and store tournaments that netlists can be both unexpected and impossible to give forewarning. At that point, you're taking a netlist explicitly to win more games, and thus win tournament prizes. Most of your opponents will not enjoy the games they play against you (especially if they're flying casual lists).

In person, I won't say a word about it, but I'll make a note of it and try to avoid playing a netlist player where I can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

You just proved my point.
There are no established social conduct of community regarding netlisting. Quite the contrary - netlists are the most common types of lists I encountered playing during tournaments. This fact alone proves that in fact acceptance of netlisting is more socially acceptable than prohibiting it.
Also, apart from this argument attempts to pull netlisting into some kind of socially unacceptable behaviour from "grey area" makes no sense. Because making netlists is totally fine, and totally acceptable by the rules - there are no ambiguities here.

Hardly. You may as well argue that no social convention against wearing your shoes within someone's house exists in the US because its not 100% accepted everywhere.

Social conventions vary from location to location and what works at your local meta will not match everywhere else. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or "is only in someone's head."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Astech said:

They exist for numerous, numerous people. Judging by lListJuggler, the people who like to play netlists are far outnumbered by those who don't.

In casual play there is the clear course of action - talking beforehand with your opponent. Problem solved. If you're bringing a netlist against a casual list without consulting your opponent, shame on you.

In regional and above event, netlisting is expected and accepted.

It's only in casual and store tournaments that netlists can be both unexpected and impossible to give forewarning. At that point, you're taking a netlist explicitly to win more games, and thus win tournament prizes. Most of your opponents will not enjoy the games they play against you (especially if they're flying casual lists).

In person, I won't say a word about it, but I'll make a note of it and try to avoid playing a netlist player where I can.

So someone brings a netlist to a local store kit tourney and wins.  You'd then purposefully avoid them on a casual night when they're bringing a casual list?  Maybe you're the person to be avoided, not the netlister.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

So someone brings a netlist to a local store kit tourney and wins.  You'd then purposefully avoid them on a casual night when they're bringing a casual list?  Maybe you're the person to be avoided, not the netlister.

Avoid if possible. I'm not going to go out of my way to not play them, but if there's a choice I'll play against a non-netlister rather than a netlister.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, gennataos said:

You may not be like this in person, but if you were whining like this in person, I would purposefully bring the most dreadful bull I could find just to spite you. 

...and this brings us back to my previous comments about how people lack an understanding of sportsmanship and as others mentioned a responsibility to ensure that your opponent is enjoying the game as well. I mostly feel that you are being facetious here*, but this is an example of being a poor sport. Openly whining at the table is also bad behavior, however a possible better way to respond would be to strike up a conversation about the weaknesses of certain lists. While destroying your opponent with your netlist, you could point out something like, "Well, VI AdvSensor EU Nym does have the ability to dodge arcs well with a high PS and Boost/Barrel Roll, but with only a 1 Agi, he melts under concentrated fire. If you don't run turrets, you can try to get an ICT or Ion Bomb in range of him; he's pretty much a sitting duck the next turn."

Building a list to spite someone is a horrible way to behave.

*well, I sure as **** hope you are

Edited by kris40k

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Astech said:

They exist for numerous, numerous people. Judging by lListJuggler, the people who like to play netlists are far outnumbered by those who don't.

In casual play there is the clear course of action - talking beforehand with your opponent. Problem solved. If you're bringing a netlist against a casual list without consulting your opponent, shame on you.

In regional and above event, netlisting is expected and accepted.

It's only in casual and store tournaments that netlists can be both unexpected and impossible to give forewarning. At that point, you're taking a netlist explicitly to win more games, and thus win tournament prizes. Most of your opponents will not enjoy the games they play against you (especially if they're flying casual lists).

In person, I won't say a word about it, but I'll make a note of it and try to avoid playing a netlist player where I can.

But where do you draw the line? Suppose I find X style of play distasteful? Or innocuous X card a total fun killer? You bring those cards that you have no idea I have feelings against. Is it now your fault that you didn't ask me about your list before hand? No. Those are my hang ups. I need to deal with them. 

Same goes with netlisting. A player shouldn't have to submit their list for approval at a casual night. Not all casual nights have your expectations. When I go to game night, I expect to see any list possible. I _invite_ any list possible because I'm usually prepared with a second list of my own and enjoy a challenge. I have made it so that I can enjoy myself with little to no regard for what other people brings, as long as it's a list.

You also show a recurring fallacy that if someone is bringing a netlist, they are just in it to win. You fail to understand that maybe that person just likes those ships. That they might have nostalgia for those characters and/or ships and want to use them, just as you might want to use X-Wings. 

If you want things to change, communicate and be willing to compromise. Don't act like the head of an inquiry board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, kris40k said:

...and this brings us back to my previous comments about how people lack an understanding of sportsmanship and as others mentioned a responsibility to ensure that your opponent is enjoying the game as well. I mostly feel that you are being facetious here*, but this is an example of being a poor sport. Openly whining at the table is also bad behavior, however a possible better way to respond would be to strike up a conversation about the weaknesses of certain lists. While destroying your opponent with your netlist, you could point out something like, "Well, VI AdvSensor Nym does have the ability to dodge arcs well with a high PS and Barrel Roll, but with only a 1 Agi, he melts under concentrated fire. If you don't run turrets, you can try to get an ICT or Ion Bomb in range of him; he's pretty much a sitting duck the next turn."

Building a list to spite someone is a horrible way to behave.

*well, I sure as **** hope you are

Let's put it like this.  Let's assume, as is my experience locally, that everyone gets along pretty well.  We're all polite and friendly, can share a joke or two while playing.  Let's say I bring a netlist to a tournament and win.  @Astech doesn't like that, doesn't say anything about it, and purposefully avoids me.  I don't know why, I just figure the guy doesn't like me, and just move on. 

Let's say @Astech does say something, but I disagree with him.  Maybe the way I have fun is to bring a top list and win?  I'm a good sport about it, I'm friendly, but I like to win?  I'll continue to bring those top lists and I guess we just won't play in a casual setting and any tournament game in which we're paired up, neither really has fun now because there's tension, but I still win.  Should I feel bad for winning because I didn't play in the manner @Astech has deemed appropriate?  Or should I be happy about it, because **** that guy for thinking he has a say in how I build lists?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Let's put it like this.  Let's assume, as is my experience locally, that everyone gets along pretty well.  We're all polite and friendly, can share a joke or two while playing.

I would say that in your given example, it sounds like Astech would be the outlier player and the one to have to adapt to the accepted social norm of your local group or move on to another location.

However...

Quote

Should I feel bad for winning because I didn't play in the manner @Astech has deemed appropriate?  Or should I be happy about it, because **** that guy for thinking he has a say in how I build lists?

This is another prime example of holding a bad attitude and poor sportsmanship. You can graciously win without holding an attitude of "**** that guy" because you disagree about something. You should probably work on that. Treat them like you want to be treated, with respect, win, and move on.

Would you expect him to say, "Yeah **** that no-skill netlisting guy" if he won? Why would it ever be ok for you to do the same?

If so, perhaps you need to take deeper introspection about your emotional investment in how you play X-Wing and how you expect others to act.

31 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Not all casual nights have your expectations. When I go to game night, I expect to see any list possible.

I think this is one of the things about these forums that not everyone grasps. It seems that some approach these sort of threads like they are debates to be won.

While this is the "FFG Community forums", this really isn't a community that matters much. The only thing that matters is your local community and the people that you set your ships across whenever you turn off the computer and go play some X-wing. Sure, we meet each other from time to time at the bigger events, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds, but overall, the local meta is what we are going to be playing against the majority of the time. At best, some of these discussions may affect behaviors seen at those events, and I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement that netlisting is perfectly acceptable and expected at larger events.

This forum is just an area for ideas to cross-pollinate. Perhaps you can make others aware of how you and your crew play the game, maybe some idea will take root and spread, but no one here should expect anyone to be able to change the local game scene for anyone, or anyone to "win" this particular topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, kris40k said:

This is another prime example of holding a bad attitude and poor sportsmanship. You can graciously win without holding an attitude of "**** that guy" because you disagree about something. You should probably work on that. Treat them like you want to be treated, with respect, win, and move on.

Would you expect him to say, "Yeah **** that no-skill netlisting guy" if he won? Why would it ever be ok for you to do the same?

If so, perhaps you need to take deeper introspection about your emotional investment in how you play X-Wing and how you expect others to act.

I can shake his hand, tell him "good game" and still think he's a whiny ****** and be happy about beating his whiny ****** ***.  Save your condescension for someone else.  This entire topic is about people like @Astech trying to limit people on how they play the game, to shame others into playing the game in the manner chosen by someone else.  I think most can agree in the casual setting, people should just be open and talk.  But for a tournament?  **** that.  Someone may never go to big events and they may really want that AA Omega Leader and/or acrylic focus tokens from a kit tourament.  Don't begrudge them because they want to win.  If you do, you're probably a whiny ******.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kris40k said:

Hardly. You may as well argue that no social convention against wearing your shoes within someone's house exists in the US because its not 100% accepted everywhere.

Social conventions vary from location to location and what works at your local meta will not match everywhere else. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or "is only in someone's head."

You just totally missed example for your own argument.

Because if you want to describe something with wearing shoes example, in X-Wing it looks more like this:

Wearing shoes in house is commonly acceptable, moreover it is legally sanctioned (rules for creating 100/6 squadrons). Also this very same law doesn't prohibits wearing red shoes (netlists by all accounts are legal), so people more often then not wear red shoes (create and play netlists). But there is a bunch of immature, self-righteous crybabies that hate people wearing red shoes. Thus they want force everyone to wear blue shoes (play whatever trash or thematic list), argumenting that there is some kind of unwritten rule forcing people to wear them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Astech said:

They exist for numerous, numerous people. Judging by lListJuggler, the people who like to play netlists are far outnumbered by those who don't.


Now explain to me from where did you get assumption that those people are against playing netlists, and share your point of view?
You know thoughts and opinions of all the people that doesn't play netlists?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

This thread... wow, I'm speechless.

I've never ignored another member so far, but this thread changed that

I really hope it's me.  If the complainers who mistakenly think they can "fix" X-Wing (spoiler: it's not broken) are ignored by everyone else and visa versa...yeah, that'd work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, kris40k said:

I think this is one of the things about these forums that not everyone grasps. It seems that some approach these sort of threads like they are debates to be won.

While this is the "FFG Community forums", this really isn't a community that matters much. The only thing that matters is your local community and the people that you set your ships across whenever you turn off the computer and go play some X-wing. Sure, we meet each other from time to time at the bigger events, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds, but overall, the local meta is what we are going to be playing against the majority of the time. At best, some of these discussions may affect behaviors seen at those events, and I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement that netlisting is perfectly acceptable and expected at larger events.

This forum is just an area for ideas to cross-pollinate. Perhaps you can make others aware of how you and your crew play the game, maybe some idea will take root and spread, but no one here should expect anyone to be able to change the local game scene for anyone, or anyone to "win" this particular topic.

Fair enough. I admit that I do come on stronger than I should at times.

In the end, I want to understand the different opinions as to challenge my own. The idea is to analyze what I believe in the light of another view point and see how it holds up. Sometimes, I see flaws and adjust my view point accordingly. Other times, it strengthens my original opinion. And that's how I hope others take my arguments. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Astech said:

1. A list that is designed to win above all else(typically brainstormed by a community). Examples of this include a Chiraneau with Kylo + Colzet escort list, which is pretty much the definition of NPE in this game. Others include FSR2 which quite often goes to a final salvo after 75 minutes of meaningless decisions and Advanced sensors Nym, which if played against certain matchups takes all the skill out of the game and gives your opponent an auto-loss.

2. Lists that are literally taken from the internet. Typically these are lists which are featured in the streams of top tables in high profile events like Hoth or Worlds. I'm all for players flying these lists to learn mechanics, but ripping them off card for card in tournaments because you know it will give you a large advantage is bordering on unsportsmanlike. It can also include lists that rank highly on List Juggler or other meta analysers.

I find that type 1 netlists are more unbearable to play against, but type 2 netlists leave me with a worse impression of the player I'm going against if they've payed it in the wrong circumstances.

You have a problem with netlists, but can't even agree with yourself about what a netlist actually is...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, kris40k said:

The fact that we are discussing this convention on an open forum with more than one person on that side proves otherwise.

The fact that there isn’t universal, or even majority consensus indicates that your social conventions are far more individual than communal.

Edited by Tlfj200

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The fact that there isn’t universal, or even majority consensus indicates that your social conventions are far more individual than communal.

You are ignoring that many of those posting that point of view are bringing this up  as a social convention at their local level, which as I have previously mentioned, is where it matters.

 

Edited by kris40k

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, SabineKey said:

But where do you draw the line? Suppose I find X style of play distasteful? Or innocuous X card a total fun killer? You bring those cards that you have no idea I have feelings against. Is it now your fault that you didn't ask me about your list before hand? No. Those are my hang ups. I need to deal with them. 

Same goes with netlisting. A player shouldn't have to submit their list for approval at a casual night. Not all casual nights have your expectations. When I go to game night, I expect to see any list possible. I _invite_ any list possible because I'm usually prepared with a second list of my own and enjoy a challenge. I have made it so that I can enjoy myself with little to no regard for what other people brings, as long as it's a list.

You also show a recurring fallacy that if someone is bringing a netlist, they are just in it to win. You fail to understand that maybe that person just likes those ships. That they might have nostalgia for those characters and/or ships and want to use them, just as you might want to use X-Wings. 

A couple of examples might make my position clearer:

1. If we're at a casual game night and I'm flying 3 B-wings with HLC (just as an example here), and you put down DeNym on the other side of the board you've broken an unspoken rule.  You've automatically won the game, and chances are50/50 you'll win without me even taking a shot (what with Nym shenanigans and all). That's no fun for me since the game was decided before it started, and none of my decisions matter whatsoever.

2. If we're in a casual store tournament where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the strongest list being brought is Brobots, and you choose to take FSR2 you've broken an unspoken rule. You've preyed on the creativity of other players to profit (literally, in most tournaments). That's no fun for your opponents, since everyone else there is now resigned to second place or worse, before the first round starts.

You've shown that you personally are prepared for everything on casual nights, but many people only bring one list (a large proportion of my community, for instance), so when one brings a netlist and nothing else, you're forcing people to either refuse the game or have very  little fun in comparison to what they might have against another creative list.

The JM5K, K-wing, Scurrg, Zuckuss and many more are extremely obscure. If you have nostalgia for them, good for you, but don't let a bit of whimsy ruin the fun of other people. I love flying X-wings, but I don't because of prowling netlists. In essence, netlisters are actively preventing me from enjoying my playstyle by flying specific lists.

6 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Wearing shoes in house is commonly acceptable, moreover it is legally sanctioned (rules for creating 100/6 squadrons). Also this very same law doesn't prohibits wearing red shoes (netlists by all accounts are legal), so people more often then not wear red shoes (create and play netlists). But there is a bunch of immature, self-righteous crybabies that hate people wearing red shoes. Thus they want force everyone to wear blue shoes (play whatever trash or thematic list), argumenting that there is some kind of unwritten rule forcing people to wear them.

In this case, it's more a case of someone saying that they don't want you wearing red shoes in their house. It's their house (game) too, and they have a right to request cooperation. They'll accept red shoes outside of their interactions with you, but when dealing with them, red shoes are not necessarily acceptable.

6 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Now explain to me from where did you get assumption that those people are against playing netlists, and share your point of view?
You know thoughts and opinions of all the people that doesn't play netlists?

List Juggler is an excellent source of information. Even though most of the data comes from larger tournaments where netlists are more prevalent, a large majority of people still fly whatever. In addition, my local community largely frowns upon netlists in our smaller tournaments.

3 hours ago, hawk32 said:

You have a problem with netlists, but can't even agree with yourself about what a netlist actually is...

Thats... I... Wow.

You've constructed a strawman argument (a logical fallacy) which did not address my point at all. Both those definitions are equally applicable, but in different circumstances. I have two definitions for the same reason that dictionaries have several - to be prepared for all circumstances of the word's use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...