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Crimsonwarlock

Hate for net listing???

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24 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

How should players who (1) win tons of tournaments and (2) play only meta-cheese consider themselves in your opinion?

When I do it -- such as when I was among the first in our area to play the refined version of Dengaroo and went undefeated with it through two tournaments -- I am well aware that a good part of my success is because I've flown cheese, and I'm not shy about making it clear that I know that.  (And then I report on it, and stop flying it.)

Other people can do whatever they want.  I'm not the boss of them.  They're not cheating; they're just being cheesy.  I can't make them not fly cheese; they can't make me not feel contempt.  It's a beautiful symmetry.

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26 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

 

Other people can do whatever they want.  I'm not the boss of them.  They're not cheating; they're just being cheesy.  I can't make them not fly cheese; they can't make me not feel contempt.  It's a beautiful symmetry.

On the same productive and socially courteous line of reasoning, there's a quite old street fighter article that pretty accurately describes most people who feel the need to claim a moral high ground for not really trying to win in a tournament.

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

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Just now, LordBlades said:

On the same productive and socially courteous line of reasoning, there's a quite old street fighter article that pretty accurately describes most people who feel the need to claim a moral high ground for not really trying to win in a tournament.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

I'm sure that's wonderful for you.  There's really not much of a higher aspiration in the world than to win the approval of the competitive videogame crowd, known to be the pinnacle of class and egalitarianism.

I mean, don't care, but if you do, knock yourself out.

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On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:21 PM, wurms said:

I dont like netlisting cause it kills creativity. There are a lot of powerful combos out there, but netlisters copy/paste the first thing that had success. So instead of building other strong lists, they just spread the disease and every tourney is full of the same few lists. Its like Neo fighting a hundred Agent Smiths.

A pre conceived notion is also that netlisting shows that you are all about win win win and dont care about fun. I think this is false cuz many of the netlists like Dengar Nym is **** fun to fly, as is Dash And intensity Poe. They just arent fun to play against at every tourney, sometimes two or three times in the same tourney!

I think part of it depends on how and why people are netlisting.  Some people do it to quickly get a good list together without having to put any effort into it, true, but others try it because, quite frankly, no one can think of everything.  Someone out there has tried something you haven't thought of, and so it can sometimes be interesting to try it out, see how it works, and work what you learned into your own lists (if applicable).  Used in that way, I would say creativity is nurtured, not stifled.

15 hours ago, DR4CO said:

LOL. Most of the time there's little actual thought to list building beyond "These ships are good, I will fly them together".

Personally, my thoughts are more, "I have no clue if these ships fly well, but they sure look fun!  Redline loaded down with munitions and a TIE Phantom all the way!"

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4 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

When I do it -- such as when I was among the first in our area to play the refined version of Dengaroo and went undefeated with it through two tournaments -- I am well aware that a good part of my success is because I've flown cheese, and I'm not shy about making it clear that I know that.  (And then I report on it, and stop flying it.)

Other people can do whatever they want.  I'm not the boss of them.  They're not cheating; they're just being cheesy.  I can't make them not fly cheese; they can't make me not feel contempt.  It's a beautiful symmetry.

I just dont follow this at all.....

People who view net listing this way tend to be net listing themselves as a way to learn or find a starting point for an idea they can modify a bit and stick a flag in as "their" creation. 

Once they are done taking an inventory of what all the "decent" combos are they keep significant portions of the things that work and swap in other pieces to give them the self satisfaction of personalization. 

And then very occasionally for no reason at all these same people give other players crap for using essentially the SAME list. 

How about this as an alternative.....dont judge anyone based on the toy space ships they put on the table. Just be a nice person and expect the same from others.

If you need other players to self impose restrictions on themselves in a casual or a competitive setting as a pre-requisite to earn your respect.....

Write down your entire ban list or print the Meta Juggler filter you consider "cheesy" and ask for their signature on the ban list before the start of each game.

Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

On the same productive and socially courteous line of reasoning, there's a quite old street fighter article that pretty accurately describes most people who feel the need to claim a moral high ground for not really trying to win in a tournament.

I'll bite.

Do you disagree that winning with more self-imposed additional rules is more impressive than winning with less additional rules? If not: why not?

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2 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the same productive and socially courteous line of reasoning, there's a quite old street fighter article that pretty accurately describes most people who feel the need to claim a moral high ground for not really trying to win in a tournament.

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Someone unironically using the term scrub and linking to this article is a good sign of a WAAC job

It was **** then, it is **** now.

You may want to read up on the differences between Mastery Vs Ego Climates in sports. Its more for youth sports, but can really help show the difference between winning at all costs, and having fun while trying to win.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/coaching-and-parenting-young-athletes/201310/winning-is-everything-myth-vs-reality

http://educatedsportsparent.com/creating-mastery-oriented-environment/

Just an excerpt:

Quote

A mastery climate is a learning environment that emphasizes skill development, personal and team success, maximum effort, and fun. This approach to coaching contrasts with an ego climate, in which the main goal is winning, and success is defined as being better than other players. We found that a win-at-all-costs ego climate was negatively related to athletes’ enjoyment and liking for their coach.

Winning doesn't always equate to fun. And X-Wing TMG is a game.

But you go ahead and cultivate the culture and environment you are comfortable in. Just don't be surprised if other players show dislike of it.

Edited by kris40k

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This kind of topic just feels like people trying to feel better about themselves, through self made moral laws(that do not exist or should affect others). Everyone has different motivations and views when building/playing a list.

For me Dash/Nym is tons of fun at the moment.

Netlisting is not bad, it is not a crime. The most successfull list will always be wildly popular, always have been, always will be. Portraying people as something evil for netlisting is absurd.

If YOU want to play against non meta lists, do something about it. Start a League, event etc. Bad mouthing others is just poor sportmanship.

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It always amuses me how the one contingent sees no contradiction in saying, in the same breath, "I have the right to fly whatever I want" and "You don't have the right to express your opinion on it."

Whereas, by contrast, I assert, "You have the right to fly whatever you want" and "I have the right to express how I feel about what you choose to fly."

It's not that subtle a difference, folks.

Edited by Jeff Wilder

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I hate Netlisting, I don't care if others do it though. Building a list is a big part of the fun for me. Figuring out a good counter to the meta is a lot of fun for me.

I have always been a Dash Rendar fan since 1996, so I have used him for the basis of most of my lists. (I most likely would despite of how good he is in the actual games, I like the fluff. I currently fly a 59 point Dash with Expertise and Lando.) But recently I have enjoyed flying 3 snap/juke Green Squadron and Jess with R2-F2.

Fly what you want as long as you are having fun. And to me, creative lists are a big chunk of fun.

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5 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the same productive and socially courteous line of reasoning, there's a quite old street fighter article that pretty accurately describes most people who feel the need to claim a moral high ground for not really trying to win in a tournament.

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

So what you're saying is that these "scrubs" don't have a monopoly on condescension towards people with different playing preferences than themselves.  Got it.

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7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'll bite.

Do you disagree that winning with more self-imposed additional rules is more impressive than winning with less additional rules? If not: why not?

Winning with additional self-imposed rules is slightly more impressive, can't argue with that.

However, just winning is way more impressive than losing with additional self-imposed rules, and it seems to me this is the angle most people are coming from ('I lost, but at least I didn't netlist, so I'm still the better player').  Everyone remembers Nand Torfs, the guy who won Worlds with Dengaroo. Who remembers some random guy who almost made Day 2 with his 100% original list ?

 

6 hours ago, kris40k said:

Someone unironically using the term scrub and linking to this article is a good sign of a WAAC job

It was **** then, it is **** now.

You may want to read up on the differences between Mastery Vs Ego Climates in sports. Its more for youth sports, but can really help show the difference between winning at all costs, and having fun while trying to win.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/coaching-and-parenting-young-athletes/201310/winning-is-everything-myth-vs-reality

http://educatedsportsparent.com/creating-mastery-oriented-environment/

Just an excerpt:

Winning doesn't always equate to fun. And X-Wing TMG is a game.

But you go ahead and cultivate the culture and environment you are comfortable in. Just don't be surprised if other players show dislike of it.

It was supposed to be an ironical answer to 'if you netlist I'll treat you with contempt'. Internet does a great job of transmitting sarcasm, again. More to the point, I deeply disapprove of both attitudes (everyone else's playstyle should respected IMO). The attitude of some people on the netlisting hate bandwagon is already creating some sort of reverse ego climate, where people's achievements are being downplayed and they're not considered 'good enough' unless they also adhere to an unofficial code of honour that includes 'thou shalt not netlist' and that IMO is unhealthy for the game.

Edited by LordBlades

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I enjoy building lists and playing those in tournaments. I enjoy playing my lists more than I enjoy taking what's necessary to win.

But you might enjoy something else about this game, and that's just fine.

I'm gonna do my best to enjoy playing you and hopefully you'll do the same. 

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I like seeing how lists work and maybe tech against a net list or tweak one or steal an idea from one. I like building my own, but if I see a certain combo that intrigues me I’m gonna use it. My main problem hasn’t been with netlisters, the typical netlister doesn’t know how to fly the list and its pretty easy to beat something that you know how it works. What’s more annoying is people complaining how’s much they hate netlists or netlisters. Also, some like myself get enjoyment out of building lists, some people don’t have the time to build a list and they just use what’s proven instead of trying to test and test to see if something may work.

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I wonder why the hate too. Netlisting isn't all bad. It helps newcomers to learn why some combinations are great while others not so much.

14 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Im more sick of players netlisting because they want the list to win for Them. Then they blame their opponents list instead of their mistakes 

Ooh I love people like this. If I lose, I get to practice against top tier lists. If I win, their bickering and rant will be my trophy.

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14 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the same productive and socially courteous line of reasoning, there's a quite old street fighter article that pretty accurately describes most people who feel the need to claim a moral high ground for not really trying to win in a tournament.

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

I was this guy for so long, it's bloody exhausting.  I used never to go to tournaments with lists I hadn't personally originated, and even to stop playing lists I had originated independently when they got popular.  I still enjoy building original lists, and running them casually, but they get very frustrating when run in a competitive context, because they're just not as good as the opponent's list.  List building is 1/2 of the game, more or less (player skill being the other half, and luck being important but roughly equal for both players, at least on a macro scale), and it's a half I don't have time to play in the detail necessary to do it well.  Theorycraft is all very well, but it's easy to miss practical problems.

If list building in x-wing wasn't so constricted, I would have a bit of an issue with netlisting, but because x-wing list building at top tier IS so constricted, I really, really don't.  Some people have time to spend testing everything and finding the best options, a lot of people don't.  Deferring to the better knowledge of the people who do isn't cheesy, it's rational.  There are still some tricks to play, and some analysis you can do especially as a constricted meta continues to develop - for instance, I spent the store champ/q3 season playing Dengar Nym - the standard build is Expertise on Dengar, which latterly I swapped for VI and Glitterstim to excellent effect, and I use EM and Plasma rather than Scavenger Crane and Countermeasures, because it just fits my style better.  That call won me the PS race in 9 out of 11 games over the 3 tournaments I played it in, and won me the game in 8 of them (I lost in the final :().

Contempt for anyone, for any reason, doesn't help the game.  Don't be a dlck.

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There's netlisting and netlisting abuse, which are two different things. 

Forums are a wonderful tool for discussing theorycrafting, exchanging build ideas, etc.
Just recently, I stole a nice Tomax Bren idea from another player (with shuttle and cool hand), and it was a pleasure building a squad around it, then posting comments and a little battle report on how it did.
I also remember a lot of nice discussions here about rebels using swarm leader, and also some big thread about triple T70 squads.
This is net building : exchanging about the ideas you've had and comparing it to some others. I spend a lot of time on my android phone's squad builder, and compariing my ideas to some here on the forums is really nice.

What people hate, in the other hand, is abuse of those tools, to take an unfair advantage over a less informed opponent. 
Just getting the latest OP list from big tournaments to wreck your partners on casual night (or even store tournaments, imo) is just stupid. People doing this just bypass one of the main ingredient of the game, letting some of the best players do the job in their place. That can be quite hatable for a player that put a lot of time and thought building their squad, and who just get squished by the list of the last [insert big event] winner, played by someone who just copy/pasted it from the internet.

So the problem is not the tool (netlisting) but the inadequate use some people make of it. 

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13 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Why does anyone care what anyone else plays...?

The best I can figure out is if there's a mismatch of expectations - like a casual night, so no one is trying to go hard.
 

Undefined expectations are definitely a huge part of the problem.

Wanting other people to act a certain way without clearly defining and politely asking for what you want from them is incredibly frustrating.  

I might agree to play within someones personal parameters for a given casual game, but at least communicate that **** first and give me the choice.....

We can't read your **** mind people!

Cartman's Mom in the GIF below basically sums up what it feel like sometimes to play X-Wing, especially on Casual Night, where the details of "not going to hard" are super thin. 

Image result for south park psychic battle gif

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17 hours ago, Fippo said:

This kind of topic just feels like people trying to feel better about themselves, through self made moral laws(that do not exist or should affect others). Everyone has different motivations and views when building/playing a list.

For me Dash/Nym is tons of fun at the moment.

Netlisting is not bad, it is not a crime. The most successfull list will always be wildly popular, always have been, always will be. Portraying people as something evil for netlisting is absurd.

If YOU want to play against non meta lists, do something about it. Start a League, event etc. Bad mouthing others is just poor sportmanship.

inc rant...

Sportsmanship.

I'll agree 100% that sportsmanship includes not bad mouthing your opponent, however I believe you somehow missed that good sportsmanship is those unwritten "self made moral laws that do not exist" between players.

Christ, I ******* love being a geek and geek culture, but sometimes it is so **** tiring having to explain to other gamers (not you, here) in competitive tabletop or video games that sometimes just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should do something, or some of the basic concepts of sportsmanship that they should have learned as kids. Back when I used to be into competitive fighting games, I became familiar with the article @LordBlades linked to, and the attitude that was prevalent in the community of try-hards vs. scrubs. There is some validity to it, such as a players possible lack of understanding of the difference between fireball spam and zoning which is a very important part of fighting games. However, the idea that winning within the confine of the rules is the only thing that matters is a horrible idea to take away from the article, and too many people use it as passage from the bible to excuse their own poor sportsmanship and that anyone who complains otherwise is "just a scrub."

There will always be cases that are not covered by the written rules, or exploits that exist within a designed game, and just because something is legal to do, doesn't make it moral to do. Yes, the developer made it possible to <do whatever>, and yes, you got banned from the game for <doing whatever> because your parents should have raised you better. A clear example of this in X-Wing TMG is slow-playing to delay a game. There is no hard and fast written rule with time limits to set dials, take actions, or about delaying a game, however it falls under the confines of "unsportsmanlike behavior" and a TO can and will call someone on it at their discretion. A less clear and very debatable example is fortressing in a dogfighting game, which thankfully isn't so effective that its become a widespread issue.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is the rule to cover unwritten rules, and to borrow a phrase from Justice Potter about pornography, "I know it when I see it."

Now, the XWing TMG Community spans the world, and what is and is not acceptable to do at the table will differ from store to store in someone's local meta, let alone different countries with different cultures. However good sportsmanship is a concept that is understood everywhere and we can expect a certain level of decorum between players no matter where we are or where we are from. There will be some differences of opinion though that come up, and that's understandable and debatable, but we should do so with respect for each other and with an open mind. Often its very hard to be open to the idea that we could be wrong on a moral level, as could be implied that we might be the baddies but its a sign of wisdom to understand that you may be wrong about something.

With that, I'll apologize if I came across personally insulting to anyone earlier; I sometimes get a little lit up with certain subjects.

Edited by kris40k

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9 minutes ago, kris40k said:

...sometimes just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should do something, or some of the basic concepts of sportsmanship that they should have learned as kids... 

 

...Unsportsmanlike conduct is the rule to cover unwritten rules, and to borrow a phrase from Justice Potter about pornography, "I know it when I see it."

Now, the XWing TMG Community spans the world, and what is and is not acceptable to do at the table will differ from store to store in someone's local meta, let alone different countries with different cultures. However good sportsmanship is a concept that is understood everywhere and we can expect a certain level of decorum between players no matter where we are or where we are from. There will be some differences of opinion though that come up, and that's understandable and debatable, but we should do so with respect for each other and with an open mind. Often its very hard to be open to the idea that we could be wrong on a moral level, as could be implied that we might be the baddies but its a sign of wisdom to understand that you may be wrong about something.

Well, that's what I'm getting at - what's the context? Because if this is some sort of casual night, and you're expecting to run your 3X list, then sure, a 'meta' list will trounce it (Spoiler - most things will trash the 3X list: it's bad).

If it's a tournament? People came to the tournament to compete, and as long as they're not cheating, to be direct, they can play whatever they want. Someone can rage, but perhaps that someone just setting yourself up for failure, or has the wrong expectations about what competition is. 

And to be direct? Not everyone knows what other peoples' expectations are, or the mystery parameters are inside others' heads.

 

All of that said, maybe some people simply like what you call "net list" or "meta"?

Jumpmaster 5000? It's actually a pretty fun ship? Nym? Some love him. Miranda? Fenn Rau? Soontir Fel? Whisper? Palpatine? Perhaps some people actually enjoy playing the ships themselves, separately from the fact they are also good (or even because they're good). 


Again, I'm not sure I fully comprehend the salt in this thread, but I suspect it's a mismatch of expectations, so can I ask a clarifying question?

Are we talking about like casual game nights here for rage against "net lists," or actual tournaments?

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11 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Well, that's what I'm getting at - what's the context? Because if this is some sort of casual night, and you're expecting to run your 3X list, then sure, a 'meta' list will trounce it (Spoiler - most things will trash the 3X list: it's bad).

If it's a tournament? People came to the tournament to compete, and as long as they're not cheating, to be direct, they can play whatever they want. Someone can rage, but perhaps that someone just setting yourself up for failure, or has the wrong expectations about what competition is. 

And to be direct? Not everyone knows what other peoples' expectations are, or the mystery parameters are inside others' heads.

 

All of that said, maybe some people simply like what you call "net list" or "meta"?

Jumpmaster 5000? It's actually a pretty fun ship? Nym? Some love him. Miranda? Fenn Rau? Soontir Fel? Whisper? Palpatine? Perhaps some people actually enjoy playing the ships themselves, separately from the fact they are also good (or even because they're good). 


Again, I'm not sure I fully comprehend the salt in this thread, but I suspect it's a mismatch of expectations, so can I ask a clarifying question?

Are we talking about like casual game nights here for rage against "net lists," or actual tournaments?

@kris40k

Adding to this as well.......

When the unspoken rules of sportsmanship include undefined expectations regarding list choices.........that aint sportsmanship. Thats just confusing for everyone involved. 

Pretending like good sportsmanship has some relationship to list choices is where all of the confusion lies for me. The two seem 100% unrelated. Having never played a table top game before in my life its one of the most frustrating parts of the culture, regardless of the setting competitive or casual. Sportsmanship in a soccer game is pretty **** straight forward.

Show Up, don't commit fouls, don't play so recklessly that you could physically hurt someone, have a positive attitude, and be a nice person win or lose. Thats about it. 

But for X-Wing...........it also includes things like......dont use a specific arbitrary set of Trick Moves or Give and Go passes.....

Especially for someone who is being exposed to the Table Top Master Race for the first time.....its absurdly hard to understand. If X-Wing sportsmanship on a casual night or in a competitive tournament includes "not using specific lists" than people need to be very very very upfront about what that means and how that is defined and then mutually agreed to. Otherwise this is what I see standing across from me if I picked the "wrong" list.

lBl0QxN.png

 

 

Edited by Boom Owl

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