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Crimsonwarlock

Hate for net listing???

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47 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

At a major tournament, if you don't use an OP thing, your opponents will and then you've put yourself at a (potentially game deciding) disadvantage before you even sit down. And for what? So you can claim the moral high ground after you lose?

As for Justin Phua, I feel obligated to point out that he wasn't the only one to use OP ships and squads. The other side of the table had Miri & Biggs for his final, and previous champs & finalists have used stuff like Dengaroo, Regen, TLTs, Fat Han, Whisper, and TIE Swarms - not exactly meta outsiders (for their respective eras).

What bothers me is someone bringing top-tier lists into the local weekly stuff where most people are brewing.

I can either bring a list that was fun to assemble and probably lose before rocks to the top tier stuff (and have enjoyable games on the rest), or be able to compete with the top tier and have no fun the rest of the time.

Especially right now, since with a lull in any major tournaments it's the perfect time to bring out the crazy. I'm more forgiving of going serious mode when store champs are running (and a lot of the people there were playing stronger lists for those months for practice), but there's so much more room for building if you go to tier 2/3 lists.

Then again, I fall strongly into the Johnny end of the spectrum (for those familiar with MtG player archetypes). 

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I really hate playing against meta lists in store championships. Beck in the day if someone put Dengaroo own on the table you knew they weren't there to have fun, their sole purpose was to win things for the whole day. At larger tournaments I can understand it (if not like it) because the competition is so much stiffer.

It also doesn't help that a lot of the netlists require a huge amount of investment in ships (like triple  Jumps or Palp Aces), so newer players are automatically on a lower tier of play.

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10 hours ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

I've seen a few posts in multiple areas (even for different games) where people state that they hate net listing.  Why is there such hate for this? 

 

I don't see why people get so mad when someone goes to the next to find a good list to play.

 

Thoughts?

because fully half the game is making your list and creating a strategy. 

if you only look up someone elses list and win rate then copy them youre basically cheating and making the game less diverse in the proccess.

obviously you might not be the first person to think that r2d2 and advanced sensors work well on Corran, but at least you thought of it yourself and played the game with your own mind, not someone elses.

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9 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

If these folks are going to a tournament then I’m sure winning might be something they would like to do.  Net listing won’t get them a lot of friends but it may get them a lot of wins.

 

at the store level and local game night I don’t see net listing as necessary unless someone else wants to see how different lists stand up to ‘the best’ or ‘the broken OP’.  Net listing doesn’t make you a jerk but the two sometimes go hand in hand.

net listing is never "necessary".  if you dont enjoy the game unless you win then youre a bad sport. its why many of us think tournaments ruin game scenes, because it attracts desperate losers who just want a win. people rarely cheat or aim for NPE in casual games, but tourney scenes are chalk full of it

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1 hour ago, Astech said:

I really hate playing against meta lists in store championships. Beck in the day if someone put Dengaroo own on the table you knew they weren't there to have fun, their sole purpose was to win things for the whole day.

How can you KNOW that? Odds are you've never met the guy sitting across from you. Maybe he finds Dengaroo fun (I did enjoy playing Dengaroo quite a lot personally).

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1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

LOL. Most of the time there's little actual thought to list building beyond "These ships are good, I will fly them together".

And that's on top of the concept that there are a finite number of worthwhile combos out there, thus many people coming to the same conclusion is highly likely, muddying the waters of what is actually netlisted and what is homebrewed.

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What is netlisting for you? Taking the whole list or using its parts? I mean, if i use countness ryad with x7 and juke, am i a netlister for using an exact popular combination other players do? Because if its true, then most good lists are already made and whats left is playing some stuff like etahn abaht with lone wolf and shield upgrade...

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9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

And that's on top of the concept that there are a finite number of worthwhile combos out there, thus many people coming to the same conclusion is highly likely, muddying the waters of what is actually netlisted and what is homebrewed.

I think the only 2 innovative lists that became meta for as long as I've been playing have been Dengaroo and Parattani. Everything else is pretty obvious. I mean, did anyone NOT see Dengar/Nym coming for example?

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3 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I think the only 2 innovative lists that became meta for as long as I've been playing have been Dengaroo and Parattani. Everything else is pretty obvious. I mean, did anyone NOT see Dengar/Nym coming for example?

Pretty much agree. There are a couple of lists like Heragator that caught me by surprise, but they came and went really fast compared to other meta lists.

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5 hours ago, DR4CO said:

At a major tournament, if you don't use an OP thing, your opponents will and then you've put yourself at a (potentially game deciding) disadvantage before you even sit down.

Right, but that has not much to do with the point I was making: Bringing a list you made yourself displays more skill than netlisting.

Whether that puts you at an immediate disadvantage or not is even debatable (the Dojo effect: the more common a list, the more practice he will have had against it).

And yes, it is absolutely about moral highground or not, because nobody can know whether you discovered the list yourself or not.

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4 hours ago, LordBlades said:

How can you KNOW that? Odds are you've never met the guy sitting across from you. Maybe he finds Dengaroo fun (I did enjoy playing Dengaroo quite a lot personally).

At Regional tournaments and above, I probably haven't met them. And I stated that I could accept netlisting in Regional and above tournaments because the netlisting is both anticipated and unavoidable (30 smart players are going to find very similar power lists).

However, in a Store Championship (and to a far greater degree in casual, monthly tournaments), having the one guy consistently bring netlists because he knows he'll take 1st place and $50 store credit along with it is a bit much.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Right, but that has not much to do with the point I was making: Bringing a list you made yourself displays more skill than netlisting.

Whether that puts you at an immediate disadvantage or not is even debatable (the Dojo effect: the more common a list, the more practice he will have had against it).

My local player base didn't mind triple jumps much at all, but they groan every time I put a cloaking device + cikatro Vizago Unkaar Plutt on the field.

I think that, given equal player skill, the increase in player competency against a netlist is significantly outweighed by the massive efficiency boost of the netlist. However, if a player with lesser skill than his opponent is netlisting, he's putting himself at a slight disadvantage because a better player can more easily exploit a netlist's known weaknesses.

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Netlisting is fine, most people are generally flying lists or at least builds that are generally perceived to be the "right" ones anyway. I just think people's frustrations are when a very overpowered or janky list is created and a whole bunch of people fly it at the same time. It's frustrating having to bash your head against a wall multiple times in the same tournament. It's the brokenness /jankiness that does it. 

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I think netlisting goes hand in hand with tournaments as you are purely there to win and pretty much the only way to do that is to fly the most broken OP list that you can.  Sure you can bring something you have created yourself but you won't tend to get very far with that. Sure there are exceptions but those are few and far between.

Netlisting imo is only acceptable in a club if the player is using that netlist for an upcoming tournament and needs practice.

 

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14 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

You'd be surprised. For being relatively simple  list builder X-wing has all kinds of hidden gems. Like that brilliant madman at nova who took 4 unguided tie punishers to top 64. I'm sure they caught at least one Miranda nym player by surprise to get that far.

Building that list is trivial, though. The braveness comes with actually giving it a shot! We knew it was possible from when UGR was spoiled. No one bothered to try if it was any good until that instance (and, given its top 64 finish, we can conclude it is very solid, more so than expected, but still far off from top tier).

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9 hours ago, DR4CO said:

LOL. Most of the time there's little actual thought to list building beyond "These ships are good, I will fly them together".

for you maybe. when my friends and I got into X-wing we would spend 2 hours swapping upgrades and ships around finding squad synergy and whatnot. if you cant make your own lists youre bad at the game

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9 hours ago, LordBlades said:

How can you KNOW that? Odds are you've never met the guy sitting across from you. Maybe he finds Dengaroo fun (I did enjoy playing Dengaroo quite a lot personally).

Wait a sec, what did you quote?

Quote

I really hate playing against meta lists in store championships. Beck in the day if someone put Dengaroo own on the table you knew they weren't there to have fun, their sole purpose was to win things for the whole day.

Odds are at store champs, I know the names of the guys kids.

We've met.

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19 hours ago, jmswood said:

One halmark of the "It's only worth my time if it's OP" net-listing subset is a lack of dignity in defeat. This sub-set of net-lister includes an overwhelming number of sore losers, especially when they lose to something they couldn't copy from top tier tournament results.

There is another sub-set of net-listers that annoy me, frequently found on the opposite side of the same coin as the "OP-only" net-listers. The group I'm talking about are the players that clutter the forums with pleas of, "How do I hard counter (insert OP combo here)?"

I genuinely love the fact that people couldn't prepare for my Nationals list. It just wasn't in the currently perceived meta at all and it took so many people out, completely by surprise. 

I really disliked the fact that Dash, Miranda and Nym was literally everywhere. So many mirror images on table after table. Some people love that side of it. I love variety and making a list mine. 

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FWIW, I don't hate net-listing.  In fact, I think hatred for net-listing is stupid.  Net-listing is a perfectly valid way to learn how to build lists and to discover what types of lists you like to fly without accidentally gimping yourself into having a terrible time.

What I hate is when 80% of a field, experienced players all, brings only two different lists, both of which finished on the final table in the "Big Event" last weekend.  I hate meta-cheese, and it's tough to hide my contempt for players who (both of these are important) (1) play only meta-cheese, and (2) consider themselves to be good players.

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1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

and it's tough to hide my contempt for players who (both of these are important) (1) play only meta-cheese, and (2) consider themselves to be good players.

Exactly!

I‘d wager that most hatred for netlisting is more contempt for douchebags that lack the necessary humility

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I don't have any hate for  a netlister I just don't understand it. Building a list is like half the fun of the game. Its deck building and that's great. It is so much fun to find a combo and build around it or find some great synergy. Also when you THINK you have a great combo and its an utter trash fire on the mat can be equally as fun (for other reasons).

 

22 hours ago, jmswood said:

One halmark of the "It's only worth my time if it's OP" net-listing subset is a lack of dignity in defeat. This sub-set of net-lister includes an overwhelming number of sore losers, especially when they lose to something they couldn't copy from top tier tournament results.

There is another sub-set of net-listers that annoy me, frequently found on the opposite side of the same coin as the "OP-only" net-listers. The group I'm talking about are the players that clutter the forums with pleas of, "How do I hard counter (insert OP combo here)?"

I will amend my point to account for these. I have no problem with a netlister, but I will agree netlisters tend to have, anecdotally, far more sore losers. Netlisting seems far more in line with the WAAC mentality. Seems people that went out of their way to make sure they brought the "best" list to the mat get very upset if that list doesn't just auto win. I find this especially true if they simply get outflown or are totally unprepared to face a list made of "random garbage".

 

End of the day fly whatever the **** you want, but its a game with toys, so have fun about it.

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4 hours ago, kris40k said:

Wait a sec, what did you quote?

Odds are at store champs, I know the names of the guys kids.

We've met.

Fair point. Let me rephrase then: there are people  who enjoy meta lists. The guy playing Dengaroo in'a Store Championship might be there to win AND have fun, because he thinks Dengaroo is fun.

4 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

 

What I hate is when 80% of a field, experienced players all, brings only two different lists, both of which finished on the final table in the "Big Event" last weekend.  I hate meta-cheese, and it's tough to hide my contempt for players who (both of these are important) (1) play only meta-cheese, and (2) consider themselves to be good players.

How should players who (1) win tons of tournaments and (2) play only meta-cheese consider themselves in your opinion?

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