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Crimsonwarlock

Hate for net listing???

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Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Most people I know don't play to win, they play to play.

So the outcome of the game doesn't matter at all?  If so that's up to you guys, but for my local group we like to win.  So we do our best to win every game we play.  We also tend to bring in different lists every time we play or even make lists on the spot.  There isn't much netlisting involved.

But we build the best lists we can and do our best to win... If you aren't interested in winning I don't see much point in playing because a win or loss against someone not really trying is not IMO very fun.

 

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Just now, VanorDM said:

First off, you don't get to speak for most people, because you don't know most people.

And most of the people I know, don't actually care about it one way or the other.  We all play to win, and having a better list is part of how you win.

The top player is going to win because they're very good at playing the game, and don't make many mistakes, but they're also very good at list building and are going to bring the best list they can, because a good list will make a minor mistake a lot less costly.

Hate to break it to ya, dude, but the competitive scene of any game (with few exceptions) tends to be a small fraction of the playerbase.  Player statistics across any genre and medium will reflect that.

If you roll up and insist on curb-stomping players rolling tier-2 lists that they play for fun at local events, you might find yourself short on players to play against.  Know your ecosystem.

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27 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

As a player all you can do, if you care enough about the experience of your opponents to do so, is to pull your punches.  Play Miranda but maybe load hre a little differently, a little weaker.  Or play Miranda but alongside something you know is a weaker wingman.

I don't think, in the context of a tournament, that it's reasonable to ask people to pull punches.  

10 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

I'm not, though?

I'm making it clear that people are well within their rights to bring what they want, but lists that make it essentially impossible for someone else's list to have any chance at winning are going to drive people away.  There's nothing ambiguous about the distinctions I drew.

I agree, and I guess those people will just be driven away.  I don't think it'll be new people, though.  New people that I've met at a tournament have the expectation they're going to lose and seem fine with it.  This discussion seems to be more centered on seasoned players who are weary of fielding competitive lists.  I don't think there's a fix for them.  I'm not going to pull punches against some who I know can compete if they just went with a different list.

3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

So, here's an example... here's my Friday evening.

I go to the store.  There's one other X-Wing player, I know him and he's a nice guy, still pretty new but he's trying to step up and get good.  He's only got one squad with him, and it's Miranda/Nym with TLTs and bombs up the wazoo.  I've brought two lists, the one I want to play (Kylo/Vader/Sabacc) and some Ion Cannon Brobots just for a change of pace.  If I play the Ion Brobots I'm going to rip him a new one, so instead we play three games with his Miranda/Nym against my Imperials. 

I manage to win all three games (one of them by the skin of my teeth) because he's pretty bad with these ships.  Along the way I try to help him learn how to fly them, I remind him when to drop bombs and why, help him figure out which targets to attack, try to explain some of the strategies he'll need to play the list well.

So I won 3-0, but nothing was on the line so who cares about the scoreline.  Did I have fun (the objective of going along to play X-Wing)?  No, because he was using infinite bombs with Sabine, and two TLTs one with Accuracy Corrector.

So should I have refused to play against him?  Well we're the only guys at the store so we'd have just both gone home without playing at all.

So should he played a different list?  Well maybe but he's trying to learn the game and win some games, so if he plays a bad list badly what does that benefit him?  He may as well play a good list badly.  At least I was able to help him out a bit, teach him how to use his squad better.

But in the end it's not a satisfying experience... we played some games, we chatted, we went home... but I could have done something else with my time and enjoyed it more.  And whose 'fault' is that, if it's not mine or his?  It's the designer's fault.  Don't make mechanics and cards and ships that are AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL to play against.  Don't turn out things that make the game feel like I'm chewing flavourless cardboard against ships that don't care which direction they're facing, don't care whether they're played well or not, don't care if I've flown well or not and just roll red dice after red dice and wait to see if it's enough to win.

On this, I'm not sure why you played three games, then.  If you weren't having fun, just bail after the first one.

Some of your posts deal with the design of the game, and I'm not interested in that discussion in the least.  I'm not aware of anyone active on the forums who actually has an impact on the design of the game and any talk about it or speculation on possible changes is really just noise.

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Could someone please explain "casual tournaments" and "game night kits"?  How do these differ from non-casual tournaments?

If the meta is screwing up casual play, would it be possible to play Epic or scenarios?  Try mixing it up with something which doesn't favor the current meta so much?

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The more I follow this thread, the more I realize that these forums aren't the right place for this discussion.  If people are disgruntle about their local scene, this discussion should be happening on their local Facebook group or at game nights, etc.  Every local scene is different.  What's acceptable or the norm in my scene might be taboo elsewhere.  If I found myself moving to a different scene, my opinion might change.

I mean, I'm fine with my local scene.  I don't have a problem with how things are working out, nor have I heard anyone having that much of a problem (other than some complaints about bombs in general).  I'm not entirely sure why I even engaged on the thread in the first place.

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Just now, gennataos said:

The more I follow this thread, the more I realize that these forums aren't the right place for this discussion.  If people are disgruntle about their local scene, this discussion should be happening on their local Facebook group or at game nights, etc.  Every local scene is different.  What's acceptable or the norm in my scene might be taboo elsewhere.  If I found myself moving to a different scene, my opinion might change.

I mean, I'm fine with my local scene.  I don't have a problem with how things are working out, nor have I heard anyone having that much of a problem (other than some complaints about bombs in general).  I'm not entirely sure why I even engaged on the thread in the first place.

I think you're right and it should happen there. But i think that the forum is a decent sounding board to hit a broadish audience. I would love to get some sort of a consensus on this.

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23 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Thing is with the 'mercs showing up to steal tournaments' thing: that's not a function of netlisting.  It's a function of 'mercs' for want of a better word.

If a national champion shows up to a 20 player GNK tournament, he'll probably win it with any semi-competitive list.  It doesn't matter that he netlists or doesn't (heck, he might have designed that netlist for all you know), it matters that he's a top tier player playing against a group of... not top tier players.

Yeah, its a little topic drift, but its not a problem that Heaver is showing up and winning a bunch of Store Championships. It is a problem that tryhards that never play at a particular store are showing up with Heaver's list and trying to win a regional buy against a bunch of scrubs who were hoping to decide who was the best player of that particular store.

It certainly isn't the guy that actually walks away with the trophy and the buy. He's not a player of that store, likely never seen again. Well, until maybe next year and the next regional buy is up for grabs.

But that's another topic, not necessarily something that needs to be discussed in this thread.

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22 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I don't think, in the context of a tournament, that it's reasonable to ask people to pull punches.  

.......

On this, I'm not sure why you played three games, then.  If you weren't having fun, just bail after the first one.

 

I think it's reasonable to ask people to pull punches at a game night kit tournament.  I think it's probably required.

 

I played three games because he's a nice guy and I was trying to help him out.  I guess I'm just not that selfish.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's perfectly reasonable to ask.

It's unreasonable to NOT ask, but expect it anyway, and vilify those who break your unwritten rule against it.

And that's what's wrong with society these days.  Everyone's so obsessed with their own rights to do what they want that they've no regard for the impact on those around them.  Wheaton's Law applies whether you want to believe it or not.

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19 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm not sure I see the difference?

What in context would make pheaver showing up at a store he never plays at, different from 'a tryhard' doing so?

Because there is not a rash of national champions going around attempting to rack up store champ trophies for shield tokens that I am aware of.

There is an actual occurring  issue with hyper-competitive players with netlists showing up at less competitive store environment and ruining game experiences of the locals. Saying, "Well, if Heaver was here, he would have stomped you guys anyways," is an irrelevant thought experiment.

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6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And that's what's wrong with society these days.  Everyone's so obsessed with their own rights to do what they want that they've no regard for the impact on those around them.  Wheaton's Law applies whether you want to believe it or not.

I don't disagree.  From reading through this topic, though, there are some people who need to bear in mind that it works both ways.

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7 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Because there is not a rash of national champions going around attempting to rack up store champ trophies for shield tokens that I am aware of.

There is an actual occurring  issue with hyper-competitive players with netlists showing up at less competitive store environment and ruining game experiences of the locals. Saying, "Well, if Heaver was here, he would have stomped you guys anyways," is an irrelevant thought experiment.

My point is that those hyper-competitive players are people of some sort, correct?

So, what makes some of them tryhards, and others not?

If someone turned up once a year to play the SC and never won, would that also be bad?  What about if someone local normally played lists in keeping with the local meta, but was the only one to take the gloves off for the S/C?

What if that someone happened to be a former national champion?

What if he was just someone who'd made the top 4 of every regional that year, but never quite managed to win one?

If your event is both public and widely publicised, you have to accept the chance that people from outside your normal locality might want to come and play at it.

If you want to have a local tournament for local people, you'll have to do it without using an FFG OP kit, or risk the wrath of FFG OP for not publicising it properly.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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Or to put it another way: if someone shows up across the table from me with what I would rightly consider a terrible list, how much of a jerk do I come across by saying 'I don't think I'll have any trouble trouncing you with Denym, would you like me to play something less good?'

How -ing condescending is that?

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Or to put it another way: if someone shows up across the table from me with what I would rightly consider a terrible list, how much of a jerk do I come across by saying 'I don't think I'll have any trouble trouncing you with Denym, would you like me to play something less good?'

How -ing condescending is that?

I believe the less condescending phrase is, "Jank or serious?"

There is one guy at my local who regularly goes to regionals and he has often started conversations with, "I'm wanting to practice for the upcoming regionals today, do you mind <discussing game preference> " I have legit skipped playing against him one day because he was looking for something tougher than I could bring and we were both cool with it.

Social skills and not coming across condescending aren't hard.

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36 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think it's reasonable to ask people to pull punches at a game night kit tournament.  I think it's probably required.

I played three games because he's a nice guy and I was trying to help him out.  I guess I'm just not that selfish.

I don't think we have anymore to say to each other on this topic.  

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4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

For some of us introverts with social anxiety, social skills can be quite a bit of a challenge, actually...

That is true, for some. Its been an ongoing theme in this thread that communication really is key to resolving these issues.

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20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

If your event is both public and widely publicised, you have to accept the chance that people from outside your normal locality might want to come and play at it.

If you want to have a local tournament for local people, you'll have to do it without using an FFG OP kit, or risk the wrath of FFG OP for not publicising it properly.

This is similar to the conclusion I came to a page or two ago.

Edited by kris40k

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3 hours ago, gennataos said:

I wonder if there or local scenes where there are 1-2 power players and they bemoan that everyone else in their area is casual and they can't find a good, competitive game.

Pretty much.  I only get to play really competitive games against one or two like minded friend and at tournaments.  The rest of the time I’m playing at a club where the regular X-Wing players are not interested in tournaments and bleeding edge lists.  Sure, I wish they were, but I also love to play X-Wing so I tone it down.  I don’t always get the level right, but I try and respect their preferences.

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2 hours ago, gennataos said:

The more I follow this thread, the more I realize that these forums aren't the right place for this discussion.  If people are disgruntle about their local scene, this discussion should be happening on their local Facebook group or at game nights, etc.  Every local scene is different.  What's acceptable or the norm in my scene might be taboo elsewhere.  If I found myself moving to a different scene, my opinion might change.

I mean, I'm fine with my local scene.  I don't have a problem with how things are working out, nor have I heard anyone having that much of a problem (other than some complaints about bombs in general).  I'm not entirely sure why I even engaged on the thread in the first place.

This.

 

look guys, some of you clearly don’t enjoy playing the same game I do, and that’s fine!

It’s the weird projections about not caring about other people that got people riled up.

 

to be direct, you’re free to not play me. And fortunately for both of us, the people that don’t like my playstyle aren’t near me, and fortunately for those people that are near me, I DONT GO TO CASUAL GAME NIGHTS.

See? Self-sorting works! 

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