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Crimsonwarlock

Hate for net listing???

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I've seen a few posts in multiple areas (even for different games) where people state that they hate net listing.  Why is there such hate for this? 

 

I don't see why people get so mad when someone goes to the next to find a good list to play.

 

Thoughts?

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23 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think the primary problem comes from a subset of netlist users. There is always those guys who play nothing but the most broken thing they can find, they are there to win and nothing else matters. While this is not every netlist user, this seems to be the most recognizable subset. You don't really forget playing against someone like them.

This. For me, it's not the act of net-listing - I've stolen lists that I like the look of. It's the people who do nothing but fly the best thing, all the time, without consideration for the fact that it's a two player game.

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6 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

This. For me, it's not the act of net-listing - I've stolen lists that I like the look of. It's the people who do nothing but fly the best thing, all the time, without consideration for the fact that it's a two player game.

If these folks are going to a tournament then I’m sure winning might be something they would like to do.  Net listing won’t get them a lot of friends but it may get them a lot of wins.

 

at the store level and local game night I don’t see net listing as necessary unless someone else wants to see how different lists stand up to ‘the best’ or ‘the broken OP’.  Net listing doesn’t make you a jerk but the two sometimes go hand in hand.

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59 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think the primary problem comes from a subset of netlist users. There is always those guys who play nothing but the most broken thing they can find, they are there to win and nothing else matters. While this is not every netlist user, this seems to be the most recognizable subset. You don't really forget playing against someone like them.

One halmark of the "It's only worth my time if it's OP" net-listing subset is a lack of dignity in defeat. This sub-set of net-lister includes an overwhelming number of sore losers, especially when they lose to something they couldn't copy from top tier tournament results.

There is another sub-set of net-listers that annoy me, frequently found on the opposite side of the same coin as the "OP-only" net-listers. The group I'm talking about are the players that clutter the forums with pleas of, "How do I hard counter (insert OP combo here)?"

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I dont like netlisting cause it kills creativity. There are a lot of powerful combos out there, but netlisters copy/paste the first thing that had success. So instead of building other strong lists, they just spread the disease and every tourney is full of the same few lists. Its like Neo fighting a hundred Agent Smiths.

A pre conceived notion is also that netlisting shows that you are all about win win win and dont care about fun. I think this is false cuz many of the netlists like Dengar Nym is **** fun to fly, as is Dash And intensity Poe. They just arent fun to play against at every tourney, sometimes two or three times in the same tourney!

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I have seldom ever run a list that I didn't build myself.  I view creating your squad as part of the game experience.   

 

 However, I get that some people don't feel the same way that I do.   I LOVE to build new lists, and I know some people have a difficult time with it.   But yeah, when people have a "Win at all costs" attitude it can really be a bummer, especially if you are a very "fly casual" type.  

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For me, the main problem for net-listing is that X-wing is a game of four (or more) pillars. One is spatial awareness/maneuvering skill, one is luck, one is target selection, and one is list building.
If someone netlists, then they are using someone else to provide one of the pillars.
Of course there's no problem in people trying out lists, playing with them, getting inspired, and of course netlisting will never go away, but it is giving control of part of the game to someone who isn't at the table.

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1 hour ago, jmswood said:

There is another sub-set of net-listers that annoy me, frequently found on the opposite side of the same coin as the "OP-only" net-listers. The group I'm talking about are the players that clutter the forums with pleas of, "How do I hard counter (insert OP combo here)?"

I often like discussions of what a power combo's weaknesses may be.  The analysis is very interesting.

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1 hour ago, FlyingToaster said:

For me, the main problem for net-listing is that X-wing is a game of four (or more) pillars. One is spatial awareness/maneuvering skill, one is luck, one is target selection, and one is list building.
If someone netlists, then they are using someone else to provide one of the pillars.

A problem IMO is that many people 'net list' the other pillars as well and nobody seems to care.

 

For example I'm willing to bet most people have not discovered the Rule of 11, the visual cues where the ships end up after moving or the base length to range relationship all by themselves. If you read about these things somewhere you have effectively netlisted some spatial awareness.

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25 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

A problem IMO is that many people 'net list' the other pillars as well and nobody seems to care.

 

For example I'm willing to bet most people have not discovered the Rule of 11, the visual cues where the ships end up after moving or the base length to range relationship all by themselves. If you read about these things somewhere you have effectively netlisted some spatial awareness.

I'd disagree with that, although I do see where you are coming from. The difference, for me, is that even if you read about the visual cues, you still have to look at the table, mentally measure things, line it up, and calculate it. With a netlist, you just download it and go. There is the argument that you need to practice with it, but that's a more minor part than being able to judge the visual cues.

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23 minutes ago, FlyingToaster said:

I'd disagree with that, although I do see where you are coming from. The difference, for me, is that even if you read about the visual cues, you still have to look at the table, mentally measure things, line it up, and calculate it. With a netlist, you just download it and go. There is the argument that you need to practice with it, but that's a more minor part than being able to judge the visual cues.

IMO, if you just download a netlist and go, you will fail at it, horribly. The only guys you will beat are guys who are equally clueless about their lists.

 

In order to be really successful with a netlist, you still need to understand what makes it tick, its strengths and weaknesses and how they apply to actual game situations.

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I don't have any issues with netlisting as it's really just the use of a currently ubiquitous meta-archetype. It just means you haven't put much thought into the list, but who am I to judge if you don't enjoy list building. It's still a legal list, and obviously a strong choice. Go nuts.

The problem I personally have is with a certain group of people who do it. Not the ones who only do it for tournament wins, nor the ones who do it because X+Y=OP (Not since that Worlds, amirite?). It's the ones who netlist something strong, walk into a tournament, and get vocally upset and disturbed that they're being beaten, or even simply bettered during a turn. There's a very small subset of netlisters who, themselves, are the NPE, not the list. Anyone who is beating them is using a "janky" list, the dice were bulls**t, or components of their list were "completely broken". It varies from place to place I'm sure, but I've personally run into these kinds of players most often at Store Championships, and the odd Regionals. I did meet one at Nationals, but he was very much the exception there.

Netlist all you want, but understand that famous and infamous lists have thousands of players expecting to meet them. They probably have a plan when they do, and they may even have practiced it. Like so many things in relation to the enjoyment of this game, it's the player that's going to determine whether the game is good or bad, not what they fly.

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My personal problem with netlisting is I find it predictable and boring, and therefore I would look down upon it if my local meta did more netlisting, but thankfully its rare that I set up across someone trying out one of the big meta lists; they are more creative and therefore fun to play against in my opinion. I like being surprised by the lists my local crew put together, and I enjoy watching videos of streamers running non-meta lists because I don't know exactly how they are going to play out.

 

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38 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Tbh X-Wing has so obvious building blocks and so few strong combinations that netlisting isn't much of an issue.

You'd be surprised. For being relatively simple  list builder X-wing has all kinds of hidden gems. Like that brilliant madman at nova who took 4 unguided tie punishers to top 64. I'm sure they caught at least one Miranda nym player by surprise to get that far.

Also I think the issue isn't netlisting but the win at all costs throw a temper tantrum when I start losing players that just happen to net list because they feel it's the list that's supposed to be an auto win list. 

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Listbuilding is undoubtedly a skill. Some people suck at it, others are brilliant, and most are inbetween.
And it's also obviously true that the list is partially responsible for the outcome of the match. Depending on skill floor/ceiling and matchup that part can be larger or smaller. Netlisting then means that part of your win is owned to someone else, while making your own list means you managed to pull off the win all by yourself. Some people don't care about this difference, some do. Personally I do care a little bit because I see someone who does well with his own list to be a more complete player than one who netlists.

But I think netlisting can first be reduced down to this question: Do you consider listbuilding to be a part of the game?
If no then being good at listbuilding still helps you in quickly understanding the list of your opponent, in grasping key aspects and weaknesses. But netlisting is then entirely neutral.
If yes then being good at listbuilding is part of the competition and netlisting means that the work of others is presented as your own. Which we generally frown upon.

Personally I wished that netlisters would realize or maybe even acknowledge that the work of someone else enabled them to win. But this is of course quite murky - many combinations are obvious and "discovered" by countless people. So in that sense it's not actually about the declaration of dependency on others but more about some humility in victory.

Which brings me to the core of the whole discussion: Why do people want to win at X-Wing in the first place?

There is not much material benefit in it, so I strongly suspect it is to have fun and maybe to be recognized for skill.
If it really is to be recognized for skill then displaying more skill is obviously better than displaying less. Using an OP ship or squad is displaying less skill - that's why Justin Phua was not as well received as previous champs.

Using a netlist is also displaying less skill compared to building your own list. That's why we're having this conversation in the first place.

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The thing that bothers me about the hate against "net listing" is the assumption that the only way to come up with powerful lists is to steal them from the internet. The reality is that a lot of the powerful combinations are fairly obvious or will be 'discovered' independently by multiple players. It's pretty rare for a list to be truly innovative, so it's pretty ridiculous to hate on people for putting together powerful abilities and running them just because other people arrived at the same conclusions.

Edited by Transmogrifier

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5 hours ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

I often like discussions of what a power combo's weaknesses may be.  The analysis is very interesting.

There's a big difference between a constructive (or deconstructive) strategy discussion, and the numerous threads that go something like this:

"I keep losing to (insert combo) but I'm too (lazy/inept/noob) to solve the problem on my own. Denizens of the internet give me the answer, and don't bother telling me to fly better because I am absolutely certain that has nothing to do with it."

Those are the ones I put on the opposite side of the same coin as people that only play lists from the top of list juggler. 

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

If it really is to be recognized for skill then displaying more skill is obviously better than displaying less. Using an OP ship or squad is displaying less skill - that's why Justin Phua was not as well received as previous champs.

At a major tournament, if you don't use an OP thing, your opponents will and then you've put yourself at a (potentially game deciding) disadvantage before you even sit down. And for what? So you can claim the moral high ground after you lose?

As for Justin Phua, I feel obligated to point out that he wasn't the only one to use OP ships and squads. The other side of the table had Miri & Biggs, and previous champs & finalists have used stuff like Dengaroo, Regen, TLTs, Fat Han, Whisper, and TIE Swarms - not exactly meta outsiders (for their respective eras).

Edited by DR4CO

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