Deadeye Headaches

[Jimbawa 122]

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The key word here is 'an attack' versus 'a game effect'.

Norra is a game effect, but she's not an attack.

Attacks are specifically your primary weapon attack (which never instructs you to spend a lock) and cards with the Attack: header.

Is there an official definition of what is an attack and what is a game effect? That would certainly help clear this up. The best I can find is the rules for Order of Gameplay, which states that to perform an attack, you must do the 10 steps as outlined on the attack timing chart. In this list, there is instruction on multiple occasion to spend a target lock. Not a separate game effect, but base order of operations for an attack. 

Without having a proof for Nora, I can't really deny that, but can you explain how Omega Ace's Pilot ability is not a game effect but an attack, despite not being a primary weapon attack, nor having the Attack: header? If there is a good explanation for why his Pilot ability counts, I'll gladly adjust the above post to reflect it. If the only reason we can come up with is "I think FFG Organized Play is wrong", then we can't refute it without some kind of recant from them. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jimbawa

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

I think FFG OP is wrong, and their rulings are not official until they're in an FAQ, which is the only canonical rules source other than the cards and the rulebooks.  Email rulings have been wrong before, and I didn't even know tweet rulings existed until this week, they can be as well.

[Jimbawa 122]

Then can you give us a definition of what a game effect is? I have been operating under the idea that a game effect is any ability, card or implement that changes the base gameplay, by any of the following: adjusting a card's stats, dial, ability to perform actions, or a change in the normal mechanical process of a part of gameplay. Would you say there is more to it than that?

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

9 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

Then can you give us a definition of what a game effect is? I have been operating under the idea that a game effect is any ability, card or implement that changes the base gameplay, by any of the following: adjusting a card's stats, dial, ability to perform actions, or a change in the normal mechanical process of a part of gameplay. Would you say there is more to it than that?

A game effect is basically anything the rules say you can do, AFAICT by the interpretation from the TS-inspired 'what is a game effect' ruling.

[joeshmoe554 839]

24 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

Is there an official definition of what is an attack and what is a game effect? That would certainly help clear this up. The best I can find is the rules for Order of Gameplay, which states that to perform an attack, you must do the 10 steps as outlined on the attack timing chart. In this list, there is instruction on multiple occasion to spend a target lock. Not a separate game effect, but base order of operations for an attack. 

The only step I see in the attack timing chart that mentions spending anything is "Pay cost to perform the attack".  Nothing else references paying a cost or spending a token.  The closest any other step comes is saying "[Attacker/Defender] resolves ability that modify [attack/defense] dice", which may trigger game effects that may spend tokens but the step itself (and the attack by inference) does not instruct the player to spend anything.

[AngryAlbatross 786]

To clarify, the ongoing discussion is to decide if Deadeye allows the player to spend a focus to reroll attack dice when attacking.

@Jimbawa I think the strongest evidence for your interpretation is not the twitter post, but is instead the FAQ's answer about spending target locks for in game effects.  

@Otacon It seems clear to me from the wording of their answer that FFG does not consider re-rolling attack dice to be different from spending a target lock for ordnance or a pilot ability.  Both appear to be 'game effects' and the first works with Deadeye, so why not the second?  

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Because 'an attack' is not instructing you to spend the lock when you spend it to reroll.

[Jimbawa 122]

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because 'an attack' is not instructing you to spend the lock when you spend it to reroll.

 

By FAQ, it is considered an instruction. And by the rules of order of gameplay, the attack includes that instruction. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jimbawa

[AngryAlbatross 786]

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Because 'an attack' is not instructing you to spend the lock when you spend it to reroll.

Then why would FFG include "spending a target lock to reroll attack dice" in their answer to "What are examples of game effects that instruct a player to spend a target lock?"

[Jimbawa 122]

By performing an attack, you must follow the rigid guide that is the attack timing flowchart. That entire chart is the instruction for the attack, isn't it?

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jimbawa

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 minute ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Then why would FFG include "spending a target lock to reroll attack dice" in their answer to "What are examples of game effects that instruct a player to spend a target lock?"

Targetting Synchroniser.

Which specifically uses the words 'game effect'.

Which Deadeye doesn't.

It uses 'an attack', which is specifically two things, one of which doesn't instruct you to spend a target lock.  The primary weapon attack, and cards with the Attack: header.

[AngryAlbatross 786]

The only problem I can see with Deadeye allowing rerolls is that when attacking with a primary weapon, the player not required to spend a target lock.  

[Jimbawa 122]

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

It uses 'an attack', which is specifically two things, one of which doesn't instruct you to spend a target lock.  The primary weapon attack, and cards with the Attack: header.

The attack must be all steps of the attack flowchart, as specified in the rules. There is no specification that attack is only a primary weapon and attack header, so you can't say it "specifically says". 

 

2 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

The only problem I can see with Deadeye allowing rerolls is that when attacking with a primary weapon, the player not required to spend a target lock.

You would still be required to spend the token, as Deadeye allows the substitution of a focus as a target lock, and only for its expenditure. If you didn't spend it, it would still only be having a focus. 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

2 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

The attack must be all steps of the attack flowchart, as specified in the rules. There is no specification that attack is only a primary weapon and attack header, so you can't say it "specifically says".

I can, did, and do.

[AngryAlbatross 786]

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

It uses 'an attack', which is specifically two things, one of which doesn't instruct you to spend a target lock.  The primary weapon attack, and cards with the Attack: header.

Correct.
Though during an attack a player can be instructed to spend a target lock to reroll dice.  

The question is then about what "When an attack instructs" means.  Does this phrase only come into play during step 1 of the Timing Chart? Or does the phrase come into play during the whole 10 step attack as @Jimbawa suggests.  

Honestly we just need a new FAQ lol

[Jimbawa 122]

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

I can, did, and do.

Then you do so without evidence. The wording specifically is "A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:" then goes on to list every step of the flowchart. I think that is a pretty clear indication that every step of that chart is a required instruction to attack. Is there any problem with that logic?

[Jimbawa 122]

4 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

The question is then about what "When an attack instructs" means.  Does this phrase only come into play during step 1 of the Timing Chart? Or does the phrase come into play during the whole 10 step attack as @Jimbawa suggests.  

Does the attack instruct you to deal damage to your opponent? What about removing shield tokens and hull? If you don't consider every effect within the attack as "the attack", then "the attack" does nothing. 

I absolutely agree that the FAQ could stand a rewrite at some point though!

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jimbawa

[AngryAlbatross 786]

Honestly I don't see how we could rule Deadeye as allowing pilot abilities but not allowing rerolls.  I think it would have to be all or nothing.  

Either Deadeye only applies during step 1 of the timing chart (meaning you can only spend focus to shoot target lock ordnance)
Or
Deadeye applies during the whole 'attack', so a player can spend a focus to reroll or to trigger pilot abilities that require spending a target lock.

[Jimbawa 122]

18 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Honestly I don't see how we could rule Deadeye as allowing pilot abilities but not allowing rerolls.  I think it would have to be all or nothing.  

I agree, it definitely needs to be consistent. We have evidence in support of all are allowed, and until we have something more conclusive, I'll leave the tldr post as it stands. 

[AngryAlbatross 786]

I want it to be option 2.  But I think the consensus is it is option 1.

I want Deadeye Tie Swarm to be a thing!

[Jimbawa 122]

If the nothing option is the consensus, I'll update the tldr post if everyone agrees. Note though, that pilot abilities, rerolls and cost for secondaries are all in that same category of game effects that instruct you to spend target locks. So Deadeye becomes "treat the attack (target lock): header as attack (focus):" and nothing else as you would then never be instructed to spend a target lock by an attack. 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

13 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

If the nothing option is the consensus, I'll update the tldr post if everyone agrees. Note though, that pilot abilities, rerolls and cost for secondaries are all in that same category of game effects that instruct you to spend target locks. So Deadeye becomes "treat the attack (target lock): header as attack (focus):" and nothing else as you would then never be instructed to spend a target lock by an attack. 

Except there are various attacks that DO instruct you to do that, vis, every torpedo and about half the missiles.

[Jimbawa 122]

30 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except there are various attacks that DO instruct you to do that, vis, every torpedo and about half the missiles.

And these are all game effects that instruct you to spend them, as defined in the FAQ. So we can't be picky and must accept that all such effects are covered by the attack, or none of them are. 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Yes.

They are game effects.

But Deadeye specifies attacks.

All attacks are game effects, but not all game effects are attacks.

This really isn't hard.

[Jimbawa 122]

So help me understand. Can you give me a complete set of instructions for the attack?