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Swapping A Characters Dash Stat

33 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, mplain said:

I can read "has a dash for a skill value" as "has a dash instead of a skill value". I have a cardboard box for a home. I have this rock for a pillow. I have forest animals for a family. 

Now I think you're just being silly.

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6 hours ago, mplain said:

I can read "has a dash for a skill value" as "has a dash instead of a skill value". I have a cardboard box for a home. I have this rock for a pillow. I have forest animals for a family. 

 You can certainly infer or imply that, but that's not the printed word. If you use a cardboard box as a home, then that box IS your home. While probably not comfortable, that rock IS your pillow. And who's to say what counts as a family? I have cats... they're part of my family, I don't see myself as having them instead of a family. In that same vein, where does it say a skill value has to be an integer, or even a number? We have examples of "x" as a skill value, after all.  As presented in the rules, a dash is just as valid of a skill value as anything else. 

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10 hours ago, mplain said:

- What's his mil skill value?

- There's no number, just a dash...

- So, no mil skill eh.

I don't think this point is really worth getting worked up about, as it doesn't really matter either way.  If you were programming and you were to set a variable to a value, such as x = 5, that value could also be x = null if there was no value given.  I think at the same time you can say "this character does not have a MIL value" but also that "this character's MIL value is dash (nill)" and the statements are equivalent. Neither is correct, or incorrect as neither allows any interactions otherwise restricted by the game.  You don't need to know if you can modify a dash value, or if dash is a value - because the game defines a dash value as being unable to be changed or modified.

I think the important information gleamed from this thread, besides the answer to the OP's question, is that there should probably be some better definitions for modifying a base value.  The real point of debate here is that we don't have any frame of reference for base value changes because they aren't "modifiers" and don't have their own terms.  Calling for the "unmodified base" value when calculating a skill total is a bit counter intuitive as the "unmodified base" is actually the base with all base value modifications.  I hope they update the RR to give definitions and an order of operations to base value modification so we don't have such a gray area when future cards modify the base values in other ways.

Edited by shosuko

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I think you're a bit stuck on the term "unmodified base" that you yourself have coined.

Quote

Base value is the value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied. For most quantities, it is also the printed value.

(current) value = base value + modifiers (to current value)

[current value] = [base value + modifiers to base value] + [modifiers to current value]

Way of the Lion applies a modifier to the base value. Not a modifier to the current value. At least not a direct one.

The RRG is not perfectly clear here of course, but I think there's enough in there to work with, for WotL and Yunako to function properly without causing any bugs.

Edited by mplain

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5 hours ago, mplain said:

I think you're a bit stuck on the term "unmodified base" that you yourself have coined.

(current) value = base value + modifiers (to current value)

[current value] = [base value + modifiers to base value] + [modifiers to current value]

Way of the Lion applies a modifier to the base value. Not a modifier to the current value. At least not a direct one.

The RRG is not perfectly clear here of course, but I think there's enough in there to work with, for WotL and Yunako to function properly without causing any bugs.

I did not - RRG page 11 - Any time a new modifier is applied, or removed, the entire quantity is recalculated from the start, considering the unmodified base value and all active modifiers.

WotL does not create a modifier, not direct or indirect.  What it does is essentially unnamed in the RRG.  If it did create a modifier than it would fall into the order of operations and it wouldn't matter in which order we used Yunako and WotL.

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I take it back - you did not coin that term.

Rather than saying that WotL does not create a modifier, i'd rather treat the RRG entry for Modifiers to be imprecise, loosely worded, and needing amendment. Just removing the word "unmodified" would solve the issue, i think.

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1 hour ago, mplain said:

I take it back - you did not coin that term.

Rather than saying that WotL does not create a modifier, i'd rather treat the RRG entry for Modifiers to be imprecise, loosely worded, and needing amendment. Just removing the word "unmodified" would solve the issue, i think.

Unfortunately as everything is worded currently it doesn't.  I didn't realize this until our conversation here pushed me to analyze these cards further.  I hope they do come through with an update that clears these up.  I feel both WotL and Yunako should be modifiers if only to define their interactions better.  They just need to add a nested classification for base value modifications vs total value modifications.

The main issue that I see is that in a general reading (which is all I had when we started) I would assume that anything which changes a value is a modifier, and that the order of operations for modifiers was nested with base modifiers following a similar procedure with standard modifiers applied afterwords.  These two things could certainly use more clarity.

Edited by shosuko

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I am not sure if there was any other responses that pointed to a specific response from the developers. There was quite a bit added to this thread since I started it and I didn't read it all in its entirety.

But I did submit rules question and Nate responded just for everyone's reference.

"The dash skill value cannot be modified or changed. Switching it to something else would change it, therefore a dash cannot be switched.

Nate French
Senior LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games"

RandomJC, mplain, shosuko and 3 others like this

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