Marinealver

Don't Throw Away Your Genesis and Spin Cycle Just yet...

23 posts in this topic

So with the rotation now the old cards are completely useless right... wrong! The old card can still be used, it is just now we have different formats.

Introducing Type A Format, Similar to Type 1 from MTG but altered for Android Netrunner rotation. Basically legal cards in this format is all the permanent big box cards core set and all cards from cycles that have rotated out. Currently only legal sets in Type A are as follows:

  • Core Set
  • Core Set 2
  • Creation and Control
  • Honor and Profit
  • Order and Chaos
  • Data and Destiny
  • Terminal Directive* (pending if set is subject to rotation or not)
  • Genesis Cycle
  • Spin Cycle

For this cycle all cards from Lunar and beyond are prohibited, until the next rotation cycle. So now we have 2 standardized formats, Type A which is the rotated out plus the legacy cards that do not rotate out, and Standard which is the current legal set. It would be nice to see some of the older decks come into play before NEH came in.

So that is simple but what if you want to put all the cards in some crazy format like a Rampant AI? Well not so fast but we do have something to pull cards from the past that doesn't ignore rotation. We don't want something like Wild Format in Netrunner now do we.

Presenting you Data Retrieval (DR) format. This format allows you to bring out of print cards into the modern setting at a cost (usually influence). Here are the rules.

  1. When using a Rotated ID you must use the +5/-1 rule (+5 Deck Size, -1 Influence). So it costs an extra 5 cards in your deck and 1 influence to resurrect Whizzard from the rubble of that building he was in. (So Whizzard will be a 50 Deck Size 44 Influence limit ID to play him.)
  2. From cards that are rotated out, only cards matching your ID's faction or neutral cards may be placed in your deck (So only Anarch can take Parasite by paying full influence cost). On top of that you pay the influence cost printed on that card. If there is no influence cost on that rotated out card then the influence cost is treated as 1.

So there are two different formats dealing with the rotation cycle and utilizing rotated out sets. What do you think of these formats or do you have one you would like to propose?

Edited by Marinealver

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Y'all have fun

I'm looking forward to never seeing another Siphon or Parasite or Keyhole or DLR or Breaking News ever again.

:lol:

 

Edited by Grimwalker
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On 9/21/2017 at 9:02 PM, Grimwalker said:

Y'all have fun

I'm looking forward to never seeing another Siphon or Parasite or Keyhole or DLR or Breaking News ever again.

:lol:

 

Bad News, Parasite is core. Or is 2.0 compleetly getting rid of it?

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Oh, they went back on their statement that they are keeping core set cards in rotation. Well that sucks.

Edited by Marinealver

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1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

Oh, they went back on their statement that they are keeping core set cards in rotation. Well that sucks.

Only the most recent version of the Core sets would be kept in rotation.

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On 22-9-2017 at 2:18 AM, Marinealver said:

So with the rotation now the old cards are completely useless right... wrong! The old card can still be used, it is just now we have different formats.

Yes, it is called casual play.

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9 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Oh, they went back on their statement that they are keeping core set cards in rotation. Well that sucks.

They were pretty clear from the beginning that the "current versions" of the Core Set and Deluxe sets would be legal for tournament play. Unfortunately we assumed that just because they had no plans at the time to change the extant products meant that they never would. It's a good thing, though. Most of the deletions from the original core set are going to have a great effect on the metagame. Parasite and runner recursion meant that a lot of times ice-based strategies were obviated, Siphon spam was bad for the game, Scorched Earth greatly reduced the possible design space of what could be done with tags.

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Exactly. The notion that FFG somehow misled people into thinking Core was evergreen has been debunked multiple times now.

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3 hours ago, Grimwalker said:

Unfortunately we assumed that just because they had no plans at the time to change the extant products meant that they never would.

I don’t remember we assuming this.

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4 hours ago, Joelist said:

Exactly. The notion that FFG somehow misled people into thinking Core was evergreen has been debunked multiple times now.

Misleading, perhaps not. But when rotation was first announced they didn't mention anything about core set rotations. In a matter of fact they said that core set (missing the "current") and deluxe expansions will remain in play.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2014/11/5/when-new-programs-overwrite-the-old/

This is not the first time FFG did go back and change things even in a news article. However this is a new team now on Android Netrunner and it being their game they can do what ever they want. Reboot it into a Redbox 2nd edition like GoT even if they feel it necessary.

I guess we all just have to accept than any and every card is subject to some sort of rotation, there are no evergreen cards.

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Could be subject to, not "is." There's still every reason to expect core sets and Deluxes will be stable for the long term. There is no rotation schedule for them, and if you actually pay attention, the reasons for issuing a revised Netrunner CS are s fairly unique set of circumstances: i.e. Some meta-distorting cards and newbie-unfriendly cards that only became apparent later on.

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On 9/25/2017 at 8:07 AM, Grimwalker said:

Could be subject to, not "is." There's still every reason to expect core sets and Deluxes will be stable for the long term. There is no rotation schedule for them, and if you actually pay attention, the reasons for issuing a revised Netrunner CS are s fairly unique set of circumstances: i.e. Some meta-distorting cards and newbie-unfriendly cards that only became apparent later on.

Yeah, but as it has been demonstrated no rotation schedule doesn't mean that they won't rotate. Heck 2nd edition (or would it be 3rd edition since this is the 2nd net runner) is still a possibility after the next two rotations.

But back on the formats. Type A has the deluxe expansions plus the cycles that rotate out and the 1st core set.

DR format has ways to bring back rotated out cards but at a price and only from within faction. So no parasite for Kit and no Howard Jackson for Hass Bioroid.

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47 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Heck 2nd edition (or would it be 3rd edition since this is the 2nd net runner) is still a possibility after the next two rotations.

Like I said, if you actually pay attention, the reasons for issuing a Revised Core Set were a unique set of circumstance. Clearly you're not paying attention. There aren't any reasons to expect that the existing Deluxes and the Revised core set will need further revision. 

Anyway, have fun playing with degenerate cards.

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Just now, Grimwalker said:

Like I said, if you actually pay attention, the reasons for issuing a Revised Core Set were a unique set of circumstance. Clearly you're not paying attention. There aren't any reasons to expect that the existing Deluxes and the Revised core set will need further revision. 

Anyway, have fun playing with degenerate cards.

Better than not finding a game at my LFGS. I would rather play a broken game than not play a perfectly balanced game. Gee when did FFG forums get so toxic. Does Howard Jackson get this much hate, it is still in every Corp deck. Well I hope it turns out best for you.

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They get toxic when people decide to whine and complain for no good reason, based on thoughtlessness. I do my best to respond with facts but I can only do so much.

Edited by Grimwalker

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17 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Better than not finding a game at my LFGS. I would rather play a broken game than not play a perfectly balanced game. Gee when did FFG forums get so toxic. Does Howard Jackson get this much hate, it is still in every Corp deck. Well I hope it turns out best for you.

The forums aren't toxic, just Grimwalker. How much black lash there will be to all these changes has yet to be seen. People are excited about the changes for now but it can quickly turn into a blandrunner situation in a hurry. This is clearly a soft reboot of the game so unless things go very south I doubt we will see ver 3 anytime soon.

At this point the game needs to be played with the changes and see how it is rather than trying to bring everything back. A fractured game isn't good for anyone.

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I've been thinking about something like a vintage format too, but I would suggest something more in the vein of Cache Refresh.  This wouldn't be the same kind of format the OP is suggesting, but I think it has a higher chance at being fun without the rampant combo degeneracy of true vintage Netrunner.

The format I've been pondering would use the Cache Refresh format of the (revised) Core Set + Terminal Directive + Two Data Pack cycles.  Instead of using the most current, you can choose any two cycles.  This would allow players who haven't kept up with the most recent cards to still participate.  With the shift in the MWL coming with rotation, you could say that any card at Level 1 at rotation becomes restricted and cards at Level 3 at rotation become removed.  

Obviously, the idea would need some iterating.  Not sure what to do with cards removed from the core set.  Perhaps they would form a cycle of their own for selection purposes.  Or they could be folded into the Genesis Cycle, since cards from the Genesis and Spin cycles have become part of the Revised Core.  Or they could all go on the restricted list, as they were mostly removed for a reason.

Any thoughts?  I love the direction the game is going with the updated core set and the altered MWL, but I'd love to have a format that I can play post rotation since I haven't been able to keep up with new sets and so have a rapidly aging card pool.

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On 9/27/2017 at 0:18 PM, Mathom1 said:

I've been thinking about something like a vintage format too, but I would suggest something more in the vein of Cache Refresh.  This wouldn't be the same kind of format the OP is suggesting, but I think it has a higher chance at being fun without the rampant combo degeneracy of true vintage Netrunner.

The format I've been pondering would use the Cache Refresh format of the (revised) Core Set + Terminal Directive + Two Data Pack cycles.  Instead of using the most current, you can choose any two cycles.  This would allow players who haven't kept up with the most recent cards to still participate.  With the shift in the MWL coming with rotation, you could say that any card at Level 1 at rotation becomes restricted and cards at Level 3 at rotation become removed.  

Obviously, the idea would need some iterating.  Not sure what to do with cards removed from the core set.  Perhaps they would form a cycle of their own for selection purposes.  Or they could be folded into the Genesis Cycle, since cards from the Genesis and Spin cycles have become part of the Revised Core.  Or they could all go on the restricted list, as they were mostly removed for a reason.

Any thoughts?  I love the direction the game is going with the updated core set and the altered MWL, but I'd love to have a format that I can play post rotation since I haven't been able to keep up with new sets and so have a rapidly aging card pool.

I like this format. I am just wondering how to make deck tracking easy so that you don't accidentally end up with cycle cards that don't belong. Of course the easiest is a ban list (even EDH has a ban list). I guess we could just keep cycles rotations together, Gen-Spin, Luna-San, Mum-Flash, Red-Kit and so on. So pick one of those rotation cycles as well. We might be able to find a more balanced meta in case competitive standard once again recreates the same meta problems that it has had pre-rotation (it isn't immune to NEH 2.0).  Having a card pool and then selecting what in that card pool is acceptable might be better in tournament crafting. 

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On 10/6/2017 at 1:20 AM, Marinealver said:

I like this format. I am just wondering how to make deck tracking easy so that you don't accidentally end up with cycle cards that don't belong. Of course the easiest is a ban list (even EDH has a ban list). I guess we could just keep cycles rotations together, Gen-Spin, Luna-San, Mum-Flash, Red-Kit and so on. So pick one of those rotation cycles as well. We might be able to find a more balanced meta in case competitive standard once again recreates the same meta problems that it has had pre-rotation (it isn't immune to NEH 2.0).  Having a card pool and then selecting what in that card pool is acceptable might be better in tournament crafting. 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "cycle cards that don't belong", but I think artificially restricting only certain cycles to be played together would be too restrictive and would stagnate the meta a lot more (not less).  Instead, there would probably need to be some kind of Most Wanted List.  I think for a first attempt I would try adopting the MWL 2.0 and adding rotated cards from MWL 1.x at the appropriate levels.  Your restrictions seem to be trying to avoid a lot of the combo/non-interactive problems of recent past, but you haven't look at if the Cache Refresh-like restrictions of only using 2 cycles, plus the update to the core set, and the ban/restriction of MWL 2.0 is already enough to address some of the pre-rotation game imbalance.

The question you have to ask is, "Can NEH asset span, or Cerebral Imaging combo, or Pre-Paid Kate, or any of the other problematic decks of the previous years be competitively constructed within the restrictions of the updated core set, 2 cycle only, and MWL 2.0+ bannings and restrictions?"  There would probably arise other problematic decks as always happens, but I think addressing them with MWL 2.0+ is easy enough and would be the first thing I'd try.  I suspect that this may actually lead to a Refresh MWL and a Rotation MWL, but I would start with them the same and see where that gets you.

I think interesting decks could form by looking at how new card strategies mesh with older strategies.  And since you adding one card from a newer cycle would cut you off from ALL the cards in one of your older cycles, deck-building decisions would be really important.

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6 hours ago, Mathom1 said:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "cycle cards that don't belong",...

Well when you mention picking 2 cycles and the core 2.0 I meant for cards from cycles outside of the chose two to be "accidentally" placed in a deck. But I guess I supposed it would be no more difficult than tracking Most Wanted influence in your deck.

But yes I would like to see a format where as you said you have all the cards from the collection available, but still not being able to make those broken combos. Such as only have two cycles of your choice seems like a real good place to start.

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Posted (edited)

It seems to me nobody would take Genesis/Spin in such a format. The Revised Core Set would give to you access to much of the G/S Block.

 

I truly do strongly object to including cards so broken and non-new-player-friendly that they’ve been purged from the core set itself. Let them stay dead, particularly since the designs of later cycles are literally predicated on rotated cards being absent. 

Just imagine, for a moment, what is in the pipeline for Criminal once Account Siphon and Desperado are gone. You want to put them BACK?

#TracyMorganNoNoHellNo.gif

Edited by Grimwalker

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