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Coldhands

Rogues

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Hi all!

Is it Just me, or did rogues disappear from the game(competitive)? I know its sort of meta related, activation with FC is stronger. Also, squad pack 2-s and cc made them less relevant...

Can cymoon refit bring new life to the Imp ones, like firesprays, decimators, agressors by increasing their speed to 4?

Edited by Coldhands
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11 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

Hi all!

Is it Just me, or did rouges disappear from the game(competitive)? I know its sort of meta related, activation with FC is stronger. Also, squad pack 2-s and cc made them less relevant...

Can cymoon refit bring new life to the Imp ones, like firesprays, decimators, agressors by increasing their speed to 4?

AFFM!only works on squads activates by commands, so no, Cymmon will have no effect on them.

In my area, Rogues are practically non-existent, but then we usually only fly the minimum squad screens necessary, and that for the Imps is 6 TIE/Fs, and the Rebs 4 A-Wings.

I know that a Decimator swarm can be nasty, and @thecactusman17 is flying them in the current tourney, so maybe he can give an opinion on those. Firespray swarms are tough, as they are expensive to accumulate, so I don't know how popular they were to begin with. I do know that the Aggressors are usually ignored, but again, like Firesprays, they're tough to accumulate.

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Well, quasar Will be still three to activate them with FC. 5 decimators with valen, or 3 decimators-3 firespays, who knows.

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Anecdotal but at the UK nationals my opponents had

Game 1, 10 squads, 0 rogues.
Game 2, 6 squads, 0 rogues.
Game 3, 2 squads, 0 rogues.
Game 4, 13 squads, 0 rogues.
Game 5, 6 squads, 2 rogues - a pair of Decimators

I took 8 squads, 0 rogues.

Perhaps the Quasar with its cheap hull, flight controllers and large squadron capacity means they are less needed. I've never really liked the Aggressor but the YT2400 Rebel equivalent is rather nice with the better speed and extra hit point in exchange for loosing counter(1). Decimators and Firesprays are good. I especially find them useful in countering enemy last/first attack runs as 1st player with fast Demolishers or MC30s. The Rogues can always act after the ships no matter how many extra activations they have and punish attack runs. They are however slightly hampered by speed 3 and can get jumped by A-wings and then they are ok at fighting them off but hardly an efficient choice.

I sometimes use Vector to get Bossk into the fight at speed 4. Yes it sort of defeats the point of Rogue but I usually only need it for the initial squadron engagement turn. If I can add AFFM to the Vector to make Bossk speed 5 and even YV666s speed 4 this may be fun.

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Decimators and Valen have been popping up some. And by some, I mean one guy did pretty well with it around me. YT-2400s still pop up too. A Hammerhead swarm made it into the top 8 at Nationals using Rogues as support.

Relay and flotillas are the main culprits of the scarcity of Rogues. Rogues pay a tactical advantage by for using their ability, because it means conceding the initiative to squadrons activated in the ship phase. Sure, you can activate Rogues with commands anyway, but that effectively means you are wasting the points the squadron pays for the Rogue ability. The primary advantage of Rogues was being able to operate away from carriers, which Relay now covers. Flotillas provide cheap ship activations and cheap squadron commands. Put the two together, why pay the extra for the Rogue ability?

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I think relay, flotillas, and better carriers have enough cheap activation now that Rogue took a hit. The relative ease now to activate squads encourages more relentless efficiency over flaxibility. 

 

I actually think rogues are in a healthy spot now. Try not spamming them, but putting 2-4 in a squad ball that has escorts and intel. Something like:

Jan

Biggs

2xXWing

4xYT-2400

128

 

You could then run a fleet with a single EHB flotilla to push squads. Xwings eat the initial damage and fight well on their own. The 2400s either reinforce your Escorts to win squad battle or move off and hit enemy ships. 

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I am not surprised that you don't see them in competitive games.

There is a much bigger variety among non-rogues to choose from.

You pay a extra point cost on rogue squads for the keyword.

Generic rogues start at 16 points and the price only goes up.

You pay the above mentioned initiative price against activated squadrons.

If you kit out ships for squadron support or if you add flotillas you might as well use those ships to push non-rogue squadrons.

And finally: how good are those squadrons really? The generic Agressor, Firespray and YV-666 don't get me excited at all on the other side i doubt I'll ever use Han, Ketsuo, Hera or Dash.

That just leaves very few squadrons and very few cases where you would want rogues.

 

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I think a couple of things have lead the rogues to be less and less.  

3.  Again the rogue keyword costs a fair bit which can usually be put into something better.

2.  Better carrier results with boosted comms and Flight Controllers.

1. I think the biggest thing that hurt them was the Relay Squadrons.   You put a couple of ships on the board that give you relay to control your fighters from anywhere on the board and they typically have strategic too which then feeds into  helping win objectives.  

I think with those 3 things you will not see squadrons with the Rogue key word much any more. 

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1 hour ago, Doppelganger said:

And finally: how good are those squadrons really? The generic Agressor, Firespray and YV-666 don't get me excited at all on the other side i doubt I'll ever use Han, Ketsuo, Hera or Dash.


That just leaves very few squadrons and very few cases where you would want rogues.

 

Hera's use case is letting not-Escorts move and adjust just like the normal rogues do/should. 

Dash iust hits like a truck and is amazing for hunting ships at end-game. 

Han is selectively useful, but really fun for a Sato fleet. 

Ketsu really just kinda sucks. 

Edited by Church14

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Rogue are expansive, relay and flotilla makes it way too easy to activate, flight controller is powerful. Rogue feels undervalued now. Compare Maarek Stele and Boba Fett. Whos gona pay 26 for Boba when Maarek is 21.

 

Dash and Ig88 are the only rogue unite i ever see in play. Dash because hes probably the best alone squadron in the game, he still see considerably less play then before. IG-88 is the only unit that can 100% ignore escort aside from saber squadron in snipe range on the empire side.

Edited by mintek917
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Relay is a great example of why I usually don't like table-wide abilities. Would have rather had something along the lines of while within close-long range of a ship performing a squadron command, that ship may select and activate up to X squadrons within close-long range of this squadron . Or, maybe even have the ability exhaust the squadron performing the relay. Anyways, relay sure didn't help rogue squadrons.

Edited by saint1012
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I just ran an all Rogue squadron ball and really enjoyed it (vids in the batrep section).  Granted, the squads I was up against were not formidable, but it was really nice to not have to worry about setting a squad dial on my ships.  I realize that activated squads are much more effective but as a Rebel, relay is pretty difficult since each VCX can only be used for one squad.  So if I want a big carrier, relay can't get all my ships.  I could have a bunch of transports activating 2 at a time but I only own one set :)  During our game I was able to run my squads all over and never worry about range.  And for chasing down ships at the end of the game? They work great.  I think that going against a serious squad ball I would be in trouble, but it sure was fun!

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Rouges used to be so that you could run squads independantly of ships, this had two benefits, ability to avoid using squadron commands, and ability to run independantly.

Now flotillas covers the ability to activate squadrons cheaply, meaning that MSU's (multiple small units) can take a cost effective carrier and still have multiple threats on the board. Previously carriers were expensive allrounders.

Relay mitigates the need to have your ships near your squadrons, however, VCX's are exceedingly expensive relay units, whilst Lambdas arent particularly cheap either. Sure Colonel Jendon is heroic in his own right, but if you are not running fire lanes/sensor net, then is 30pts for two VCX really better use of your funds than affording the rouge costs? The answer is not exactly clear cut and I am not going to attempt to argue that it is.

The biggest advantage rouges have is in timing, they can move and shoot in the squadron phase. But this is something we dont seem to have figured out how to utilise effectively. When would we prefer for our squadrons to activate in the squadron phase rather than ship phase?

Firstly, we could be running a rouge shield that would prefer to move after Sloane squads have bombed a ship, so they strike without vengeance? This has its uses and incidentally is a good counter to Rieekan, however, what it does mean is we need to keep our squads out of range of the enemy during the ship phase. Well for a lot of rouges this isnt really achievable as they are too slow. The only fast rouges that spring to mind are YT2400s and Aggressors, however are these really units you want to hold back? They are pure antisquadron so are quite happy in a squadron fight which they may be better served in the ship phase.

Maybe Hera and bombers might be useful as they can bomb with impunity. But then do we have proper rouge bombers with speed?

I'm not really sure where I am going with this, but its the ability to respond strongly in the squadron phase we should be looking to utilise, its just a question of how.

Edited by Ginkapo
Misspelt Rouge
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2 hours ago, mintek917 said:

Rogue are expansive, relay and flotilla makes it way too easy to activate, flight controller is powerful. Rogue feels undervalued now. Compare Maarek Stele and Boba Fett. Whos gona pay 26 for Boba when Maarek is 21.

Boba vs Maarek isnt that simple, just comparing points...

Vs squasds you pay 8,66 points per avg dmg for Boba, 7,6 for Maarek.

Against ships, its 9,4 vs 14.

And you can carry on... In my opinion, it really depends on what you need. Sometimes the 1 'free' dmg could prove essential when you have to deal with intel, or a scatter ace.

 

32 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

The biggest advantage rouges have is in timing, they can move and shoot in the squadron phase. But this is something we dont seem to have figured out how to utilise effectively. When would we prefer for our squadrons to activate in the squadron phase rather than ship phase?

Firstly, we could be running a rouge shield that would prefer to move after Sloane squads have bombed a ship, so they strike without vengeance? This has its uses and incidentally is a good counter to Rieekan, however, what it does mean is we need to keep our squads out of range of the enemy during the ship phase. Well for a lot of rouges this isnt really achievable as they are too slow. The only fast rouges that spring to mind are YT2400s and Aggressors, however are these really units you want to hold back? They are pure antisquadron so are quite happy in a squadron fight which they may be better served in the ship phase.

Maybe Hera and bombers might be useful as they can bomb with impunity. But then do we have proper rouge bombers with speed?

I'm not really sure where I am going with this, but its the ability to respond strongly in the squadron phase we should be looking to utilise, its just a question of how.

One use for this: Fighter ambush.

1, You're threatening your opponent from the beginning. 2, Your ships can pepper and strip off shields, so your squads can score victory tokens in the squad phase.
*edit: situational, and fun

Edited by Coldhands

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What needs to happen is Relay needs to be nerfed to within command distance of the squadron commanding ship.

I watched glimpses of the HH Swarm w/Rogues at Nats... I still don't know how we did so well in the current meta.  If he reads the forums, I hope he posts his thoughts!

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1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Rouges used to be so that you could run squads independantly of ships, this had two benefits, ability to avoid using squadron commands, and ability to run independantly.

Now flotillas covers the ability to activate squadrons cheaply, meaning that MSU's (multiple small units) can take a cost effective carrier and still have multiple threats on the board. Previously carriers were expensive allrounders.

Relay mitigates the need to have your ships near your squadrons, however, VCX's are exceedingly expensive relay units, whilst Lambdas arent particularly cheap either. Sure Colonel Jendon is heroic in his own right, but if you are not running fire lanes/sensor net, then is 30pts for two VCX really better use of your funds than affording the rouge costs? The answer is not exactly clear cut and I am not going to attempt to argue that it is.

The biggest advantage rouges have is in timing, they can move and shoot in the squadron phase. But this is something we dont seem to have figured out how to utilise effectively. When would we prefer for our squadrons to activate in the squadron phase rather than ship phase?

Firstly, we could be running a rouge shield that would prefer to move after Sloane squads have bombed a ship, so they strike without vengeance? This has its uses and incidentally is a good counter to Rieekan, however, what it does mean is we need to keep our squads out of range of the enemy during the ship phase. Well for a lot of rouges this isnt really achievable as they are too slow. The only fast rouges that spring to mind are YT2400s and Aggressors, however are these really units you want to hold back? They are pure antisquadron so are quite happy in a squadron fight which they may be better served in the ship phase.

Maybe Hera and bombers might be useful as they can bomb with impunity. But then do we have proper rouge bombers with speed?

I'm not really sure where I am going with this, but its the ability to respond strongly in the squadron phase we should be looking to utilise, its just a question of how.

I'm gonna have an aneurysm over here...

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57 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

Boba vs Maarek isnt that simple, just comparing points...

Vs squasds you pay 8,66 points per avg dmg for Boba, 7,6 for Maarek.

Against ships, its 9,4 vs 14.

And you can carry on... In my opinion, it really depends on what you need. Sometimes the 1 'free' dmg could prove essential when you have to deal with intel, or a scatter ace.

 

That 1 damage is hurt by the fact he goes to speed 3 and its only usable when he activates and not move. Maarek bonus is always present when he attacks.

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Just now, durandal343 said:

This has gotten me so confused that I had to look up rogue and rouge spellings.  I never used to get the two words mixed up but I fear after this it will forever plague me.  My confidence has been shattered completely.

No, this is what @Ginkapo wants!

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I've been running Rogues with my Hammerhead/Pelta fleet.  The key for me has been to be careful to either avoid the alpha strike by staying out of range or reduce it by hiding in asteroid fields.  When you don't get jumped by commanded squadrons going later in the turn can be a huge advantage.  I can use flak from the ships to wear down opposing squads and then the rogues can finish off the wounded.

 

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5 hours ago, Doppelganger said:

I am not surprised that you don't see them in competitive games.

There is a much bigger variety among non-rogues to choose from.

You pay a extra point cost on rogue squads for the keyword.

Generic rogues start at 16 points and the price only goes up.

You pay the above mentioned initiative price against activated squadrons.

If you kit out ships for squadron support or if you add flotillas you might as well use those ships to push non-rogue squadrons.

And finally: how good are those squadrons really? The generic Agressor, Firespray and YV-666 don't get me excited at all on the other side i doubt I'll ever use Han, Ketsuo, Hera or Dash.

That just leaves very few squadrons and very few cases where you would want rogues.

 

Han is great with Sato, the synergy there is real. 

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